LNRs

[Ice]

Friday night at the FNR someone asked me to come on the LNCR… I made the comment that I didn’t like the runs as they get a bit dangerous. So tonight I come to a mate’s for dinner and I’m greeted with “4 offs on the LNCR today.”

For some time now there have been two schools of thought. Many experienced riders have commented that they feel the LNR is not learner friendly at all. Many believe it has grown too large.

My personal thoughts tend to be that it was established for a specific group of people and as time has gone by and those riders have improved, they have never ‘graduated’ on to other rides and the LNR has followed them in their skill level and grown beyond that of a ride suitable for an R-E learner on their first ride out.

Concerns are also raised at the wisdom of grouping a large number of unskilled riders together away from their shadows amongst only other inexperienced riders.
Also at the lack of instruction/guidelines given for the rides.

Other people swear by these rides for various reasons.

I’m interested in finding out different thoughts and raising some discussion to find out if the Learner/Newbie Rides are really suitable for learners/newbies at all.

Are there too many riders?
Are there too many people who are neither learners nor shadows?
Are there too many accidents?

What are your thoughts?



*EDIT* Poll added for those who can be arsed reading all the options! :Lol:

[thro]

^^ my thoughts are that there are plenty of people on the LNRs who should check out the FNR, yes.

I could name names, but I'll say this much: if you were on your RE in 06, have graduated to a big bore, and are one of the regulars, most of you could handle a typical FNR (from the ones I've been on).

Just say hello to Tim beforehand and he'll look out for you


edit:
The LNR/FNR spacing, pace, etc is different yes. I think perhaps one issue i can see on teh LNR is that (some) people are doing rather rapid pace, and still crammed together, not giving each other room to breathe, not taking their own line into corners, etc. They're riding like noobs, just *faster*.

Now for a bunch of learners this is fine, but if you start tryign to ride like that when the pace is upped... well, i wave people past... rather than have some guy i don't know jammed up my arse...

[Captain Starfish]

After the number of n00bs I've watched wobble through their first LNR, keep coming back for more and see the difference it's made over three months or so... I'm of the opinion that these are worth their weight in gold.

The noobs at the front get a fairly well paced, nice ride.

The idiots at the back get to be idiots.

Those who just want to go for a ride with mates and get another hour or two of experience under their belts can do that too.

Hey, guess what, crashes will happen. With experienced people or inexperienced people.

LNCRs are the first time many n00bs experience the joy of country roads - higher speeds, dodgy cambered corners, gravel, honkey nuts, etc, etc, etc. The chance of prangs is much higher. But you've got to get out there sometime. And not all of these rides have casualties.

If, as a n00b, I was going to have a crash I reckon I'd rather it happen when there were heaps of people around to help me out.

And after wearing out my fingers just a little bit more I sure hope you aren't just trolling...

[Bart]

Yep. I agree 100%. I think the LNR needs to be split up and another ride made. One for dedicated learners and one for the rest.

[Fastgirl]

I have also heard the very same thing. It is a personal choice...but IMO I think a LNR shouldnt be bigger than 10 learners at the most. Putting anymore than that IMO put learners in a very vulnerable position....its like they are more trying to survive than learn...and from a lot of the offs Im hearing about I do think there should be a little rethink on the numbers turning up?

It is an awesome thing Stoney does...and the rides are an awesome thing needed. But numbers need to be safe...not reckless. I think those who arent learners any longer shoudnt be on the runs...and should also appreciate the fact that acting recklessly is not what an LNR is about. Its about building confidence, with experienced shadows who can impart knowledge and riding time with a learner.

[Xuaxace]

I attended my first ride last tueday, i was quite overwelled by the number of people there were, and short off pussed out from going to people and introduce myself but anyhow that is just me being a pussy.

The ride itself was great x1000, besides some group riding rules that i didn't know i didn't feel like it was above my skill range, but i can understand if for some people it would. Dark and not very visible secondary roads going 65/70 can be a bit difficult at first.


I think there isn't much wrong with how this LNR are, gives people a great chance to go down when they have time, as there are so many, but it would be nice to have a STRICTLY Newbie/shadow rides every once in a while.

My newbie opinion.

[Bad Minton]

Never really thought about it to be honest.
I've been on a few LNRs but not a country run yet.

LNRs generally have a separate section for Learner/Inexperienced riders up the front. They have their own TEC and everyone stays behind them.
From what I've heard it's the opposite for the country runs; The big boys are free to race on to the meet point with the learners bringing up the rear.

So the rides cater to both learners and also experienced riders who just want a place to go.

Country roads would have less traffic which means (I imagine) that debris will sit on a road for longer. Which may be the main cause of dropped bikes (speculation) on the LNCRs. That won't change with the number of bikes or experienced riders.

There's only too many bikes when you can't keep track of who got back and who didn't.
As long as experienced riders and learners don't get in each other's way then there's no reason who the ride can't be enjoyed by both groups.
Massed learners would only be a problem if they bunched up too much, as long as a good single file line through corners and roundabouts (and following your own line and not that of the person in front) is mentioned before the ride then that shouldn't be a problem either.

[Johnno]

One of the bad off's today was in the experienced group that went first on Obrians and was to hot in the corner following someone that knew the road much better.
Another was just bad riding form going 3 deep into a blind corner

There was 60 bikes on this ride and I found it well organised and if riders listen to what their told then they know whats going on.

Everyone was told that the experienced fast riders will go first then the medium paced rider then the slower and lnr riders.

Another off was pulling up to mark a corner on gravel for a newish rider and a low speed off happened, Just a learning curve for this rider.

There were a few twits on the ride that did dangerous moves but I think you get them on any ride.

My wife and I had a great ride with no problems as did most riders.

[Captain Starfish]

Pene, Cols - how about you come on one of these rides instead of sitting back and passing judgement based on hearsay and your own imaginations?

I'm not saying this with any aggravation. I have heard the same rumours and massive leaps to conclusion that you have heard, but it's a little different to go on one of these rides yourself.

See what people are where in the group. Notice how the wobbly people who are just getting their wheels under them are up the front, how the antics aren't really causing anyone any grief, how the guys who obviously are new to group riding are pulled aside and quietly coached if they are not playing the group game properly. Enjoy the sensation of knowledge, tips, techniques etc being passed down from the most experienced riders to the up-and-comers, from them to the newer guys n gals, and from them to the rank beginners.

Yes, the group is getting big. But there are mechanisms in place to cope with that and, most of the time, they work.

I'm sure if someone else committed to taking a group of not-quite-noobs out for a ride EVERY WEEK then the pack would split. Anyone feel like offering up that much time?

No, I didn't think so. Keep on rocking, Stoney - I reckon these rides are awesome.

[Souter]

As a learner and a Noob ive been on 2 LNR's so far. The first, a Thursday night LNR and the second, the country LNR on today.

The first ride I went on was definatly alot more learner friendly, the group was a little smaller, but the noobs stayed to the front and the *rest* had fun up the back. This was Ideal, as, at no time did I feel pressure to ride faster or harder than I needed.

Todays ride was a little more full on, I constantly found myself mixed up with bigger bikes and more experienced riders, pushing myself a little, to keep up. I think the distance covered had alot to do with this, falling behind due to traffic and fuel/stop areas.

I think a big problem is with people riding beyond their limits, and pushing themselves too much. That said, if riders can place themselves within the ride according to skill level, i don't see much of a problem.

Both time's ive been on these rides, I come back with a grin from ear-to-ear that you just can't wipe off. It definatly added an unknown yet unreal dimension to riding for me.

Cheers

[Fastgirl]

Not once did I pass critisism to Stoney...if you read again my post...I think what she does is awesome..no one else here does as much as she does for the learners. In no way is this critisism of Stoney at all.

The question was raised at the numbers of the LNR....and the validity of a non learner being on these rides Starfish...I think its a fair enough statement.

No need to be defensive or attacking...its a open discussion is all.

I do wish I could devote the time to helping out that Stoney does....but I simply cannot. I have a young family that Im committed to...simple as that. Also it isnt heresay or imaginations from my information...its from some who have gone on a ride under the impression of it being a smaller group...but then deciding not to go because of the numbers.

[Hornet]

I attended one of these and watched the ride pull into a bus bay on (I think) Welshpool Road to allow the backmarkers to catch up, only to have so many bikes that not everyone could fit in the bay. I then watched as a truck almost took out the riders stuck at the back trying to squeeze in. I was literally scared for their lives.

There are other times that lack of experience (and that's what I put the above situation down to) has contributed to situations that I'd rather not be involved in.

I think the LNR has a place, for sure, but when it gets to a certain size it gets hard to manage. It should probably be split into two groups, then.

Then again, I'm not a regular so my opinion shouldn't carry a lot of weight. It's up to the regulars to say.

[Captain Starfish]

Not implying that there was criticism at all.

Simply that ultranoobs benefit from regular group rides with more experienced riders.
Also not-quite-such-noobs benefit from regular group rides with more experienced riders.

So maybe there should be two group rides for these two groups. Maybe.

But within an LNR the ultranoobs and the not-so-noobs are usually in different areas of the group anyway.

And at the moment there's only one regular ride for the not-quite-FNR people.

If you take away all the people that could be going on the FNRs, you've lost a major source of information and advice to the less experienced riders. Yeah, they may be a little green - but if they happen to be next to someone who demonstrates an "opportunity for improvement" they may still know enough to say something.

It's working. Some people crash, but I'd suggest that the cause of these crashes is not the group or the ride format. People manage on their own to fuck up. I can't think of one incident where an LNR accident has occurred because of the group or the makeup of the group.

[akeracat]

Originally Posted by Johnno

Another was just bad riding form going 3 deep into a blind corner

Having been on a LNR this is the thing I hated the most and the reason I'd probably never do one again.

This behaviour at the middle to end of the pack was continous and disturbing - this is from supposedly more experienced riders.

I pulled out halfway because of this behaviour.

No disrespect to Stonnie her rides are great but she is at the front of the pack leading and doesn't see this stuff happening.

I don't think that its the size of the group its the inability of people to grasp the dynamics of group riding. Find your own space and stay the F out of other peoples.

[Dubs]

I liked Jims ones

Dubs

[Ice]

Originally Posted by Bad Minton

LNRs generally have a separate section for Learner/Inexperienced riders up the front. They have their own TEC and everyone stays behind them.
From what I've heard it's the opposite for the country runs; The big boys are free to race on to the meet point with the learners bringing up the rear.

But who are these learners learning from if they are grouped together? Each other?

Originally Posted by Captain Starfish

Pene, Cols - how about you come on one of these rides instead of sitting back and passing judgement based on hearsay and your own imaginations?

No offence taken, Simon. I've been on three LNRs.

I believe there should be a 'middle ground' ride between the pace of the LNR and the WNR/FNR to take the pressure off the LNR... But like you said, does anyone have the commitment to actually make that happen?

My purpose in posting this was to get the mutterings out in the open and start up a discussion. I give Sandra full credit for her commitment to these rides. But I do think there are a lot of offs, and I've been concerned by several things I've seen on the rides I attended. Perhaps some constructive discussion can help make these rides better?

[Fastgirl]

Originally Posted by Captain Starfish

Simply that ultranoobs benefit from regular group rides with more experienced riders.

Also not-quite-such-noobs benefit from regular group rides with more experienced riders.

So maybe there should be two group rides for these two groups. Maybe.

.

exactly... couldnt agree more. This isnt about whos right or wrong...its about safety for learner riders.

All the discussion is about is safety. Thats all.

[barfridge]

I was on that ride as well Hornet, and yes, it was very very dodgy. None of which is Stoneville's fault, as she is out the front leading the ride, and not responsible for what happens back in the pack.

I also feel the rides have grown too large, so there are 2 definite groups on the ride. Hence you get experienced people playing out the back, and the newer riders surrounded by only other newer riders, so there is nobody to pass on essentials skills.

I feel the ride needs to get back to its focus of learners. Have fewer experienced riders, but place them in with the learners, not out the back of the ride.

Otherwise have a social ride where everyone is invited, without the focus on learners. I feel the ride is stuck between these 2 options, and is suffering for it.

[rc_sam]

+1 What Starfish said.

I can't see myself being where i am today without being able to go on the LNR's and have never seen anyone else put in the effort Stoney does for learners/noobies.

[akeracat]

oh PS Hornet & Barfie I was on that ride to and it was a FNR lead by Matt or Savi out to the Kalamunda pub