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Old 24-06-2008, 10:38 PM   #21 (permalink)
ShedFullaDeadZeds
 
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I ride old bikes Spock.
The newest i have was made in 1985, the oldest 1974.
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Originally Posted by Spock View Post
In my opinion and experience, very few bikes nowadays have such sloppy drive-trains (if the chain is adjusted correctly) and/or “snatchy” throttles that is any need to trail the rear brake in corners.

There is however one use for the rear brake in cornering, and that is when you have adjusted your speed for a corner (and released the front brake) and are just about to tip the bike in but then realise you are still going a little too fast. At this late stage applying the front brake will unsettle the bike by causing fork dive, but applying a little rear brake allows you to scrub off a bit of speed with little or no fork dive.
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Old 24-06-2008, 10:40 PM   #22 (permalink)
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one of my riding instructors once ask me if i kinew what a gyroscope was.. and i didnt at the time

a motor is a spinning gyroscope
the clutch is multiplate wet type
so slip it and spin that motor up
it will noticably stabilize the bike at slow speed (imagine situations like figure 8s which apprently you know longer have to show a mastery of)

but you have to learn to drag the rear brake to understand that

:edit: no disrespect intended spock, you arent a riding instructor anymore iirc
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Old 24-06-2008, 10:41 PM   #23 (permalink)
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What spock said about fork dive...

When i'm approaching a corner... it will be both brakes on, mostly front.. then gradually transition to less and less front... and eventually no front, then less and less rear.

Obviously it doesn't take an eternity to do (it's all over pretty quickly), but i'll tend to slightly trail with the rear.

I think.. I just do it.

I go through a set of rear pads in about 9-18,000km (edit: fixed... was 9000 on the zzr, 18k on the cbr)
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Old 24-06-2008, 10:42 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XSorXpire View Post
I ride old bikes Spock.
The newest i have was made in 1985, the oldest 1974.
Fair enough. Trail braking was developed for bikes from those eras. Only way to get the power on smoothly out of corners on those old beasts.
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Old 24-06-2008, 10:44 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zer View Post
but you have to learn to drag the rear brake to understand that

:edit: no disrespect intended spock, you arent a riding instructor anymore iirc
I used to teach dragging the back brake in low speed turns and through roundabouts etc - but I don't think there is any good reason to use the rear brake in fast corners.
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Old 24-06-2008, 10:47 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spock View Post
but I don't think there is any good reason to use the rear brake in fast corners.
me neither :-P
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Old 24-06-2008, 10:47 PM   #27 (permalink)
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^^ fast corners certainly no, if you haven't had to brake very hard i don't think you need to do it, just back off and get back on it.

typical residential area roundabouts or 90 degree turns tho I do use it to help slow down more smoothly without so much fork dive and rebound...

edit:
Also makes the transition from closed throttle to open much smoother... as already mentioned...
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Old 24-06-2008, 10:48 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
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typical residential area roundabouts or 90 degree turns tho I do use it to help slow down more smoothly without so much fork dive and rebound...
Exactly.
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Old 24-06-2008, 10:52 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I use it too. Mostly low speed stuff and minor speed adjustments whilst cornering but rarely.
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Old 24-06-2008, 10:52 PM   #30 (permalink)
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^^ well to put that in motogp terms...

They brake *fucking hard* - and all the way up to the apex.

I would presume that at higher speeds, the increased braking loads are similar for what we experience at lower speeds with crappier tyres and softer suspension..... once the rear wheel is back on the ground they probably use rear brake to smooth the transition out a bit?
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Old 25-06-2008, 12:07 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thro View Post
They brake *fucking hard* - and all the way up to the apex.

I would presume that at higher speeds, the increased braking loads are similar for what we experience at lower speeds with crappier tyres and softer suspension..... once the rear wheel is back on the ground they probably use rear brake to smooth the transition out a bit?
if they exercise more than we do?
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Old 25-06-2008, 03:46 AM   #32 (permalink)
2004 R6
 
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Can honestly say I dont use the rear brake for riding

My bike has 40,000km on it, and still has the original factory pads on the back, with bugger all wear on. The only time I use mine is U-turns ect.

Theres a lot you guys are saying I don't fully agree with about it's use if you're on a modern sports bike.
For example using it to take lash out the drive line when rolling the throttle on ect. IMO the best way to do that, is to have a properly adjusted throttle cable and chain. Then with smooth throttle use, you wont get lash in the first place.

Using it in corners to tighten your line. While i can see that working to a degree say turning at a t-intersection, if you're going fast and need to wash off a little speed corner, you'd be better off using your fronts.

In my experience, it's a misconception that using your fronts mid corner makes the bike stand up. If you have your suspension set even close to right, and can apply it smoothly, I think a lot of you would be stunned at how hard you can brake/trail brake mid corner without it upsetting the bike at all

ps if your getting fork dive bad enough to upset the bike while general riding, you need to stiffen your suspension
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Old 25-06-2008, 04:30 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Try working for even a day without using your rear as a postie....
I use my rear all of the time, both at work and on my own bike(s). You'd be suprised just how much effect the rear can have on a bike. Those that don't....well clearly...how would they know?
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Old 25-06-2008, 04:43 AM   #34 (permalink)
 
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I believe it might be to tighten your line through a corner.
I used it mid corner before and it tucks the bike right in... however, due to my brake lever being positioned where it is, and a complete and utter pain in the ass to move it so that I can use it easier, only about 5% or less of the time do I ever use my rear brake. (which I know is bad)
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Old 25-06-2008, 05:26 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I obviously don't know anything about bike dynamics since i don't use the rear brake, but my slipper clutch makes upfor it quite well providing me with just the right amount of rear brake. whether you use the rear brake or engine braking you are getting the same effect . Just one pulls on the disc and the other on the sprocket.
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Old 25-06-2008, 05:41 AM   #36 (permalink)
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i use the engine to brake alot of the time when im riding, but when i think about when im going through a corner i will use some rear brake jsut to try and get used to it for the times that i may need to actually use it in a shitty situation. oh and its also there to bring the front wheel down in times of attempted "uncontrolled acceleration".
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Old 25-06-2008, 06:05 AM   #37 (permalink)
 
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Stablises bike under heavy braking espcailly with long travel susepsnion allows to adjust line mind corner it is useful IMO.
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Old 25-06-2008, 07:04 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I posted this in another forum awhile ago, half parody, half serious, and it turned into a shit fight I like using my rear brake, but I grew up riding on a farm as a kid. Offroaders seem to use more rear brake. Anyway, I'm not telling others to do this, I'm saying this is what I like to do-

Pragmatic And Practical Rear Brake Usage

What Is The Subject - As readers of English, most of you will realize that this thread is dedicated to the usage of the rear brake: This device comes fitted, usually at no extra charge, to almost all currently manufactured motorcycles. As of the typing of these words, there there are no known countries or states in which the use of this device is banned, by either law, nor indeed convention. You can therefore operate this device without fear of persecution by any legal entity through out our round, or more accurately, spherical world.
Bearing these points in mind, please feel free to add your practical experience on how you use your rear braking device on a daily basis. A description of the execution and the rational of said maneuver should be provided for the edification of interested Netrider members, who may wish to broaden their motorcycling technique r'epertoire.

What Is Not The Subject - I do not wish to hear about, in no particular order:

1. I do not want to hear the sad story of your late Uncle Guido. How he was cut down in the prime of his youth, when his Kawasaki H1 exploded into a fiery ball while he attempted to do a rear brake "Skid" at 76Kph, and how your Father will remove you from his will if mention of the use of rear brakes is ever made again.

2. I do not want to hear how you "was learned" to disconnect your rear brake at an "Advanced Sk00L" training class, which was designed for the lowest common denominator in order to reduce their insurance premiums with lower levels of potential death and destruction amongst their all too impressionable patrons.

3. I do not want to hear that "I know more noob!" because Keith Code, his very self, used his own personal carbon fibre E-Meter to measure your Midi-Chlorian levels, and after weighing your wallet, pronounced that you too could reach Operating Thetan III for the small consideration of a paltry $5999.

If any of the above points, in any way, tempts you to mash keys with unbounded vitriol, please create a separate thread dedicated to such. Some suggested titles might be, "devull has lice and smells too!", or perhaps, "my rear brake murdered my grandma!". Within these threads you can list all of the Hollywood celebrities who have died in rear brake incidents. You could chant the Surgeon Generals warning regarding rear brake exposures connection to testicular cancer. You can also list all of the dozens of your friends who have destroyed their lives through rear brake usage. You might even discover new friends who also have Steve Brouggy on speed dial?

Do not attempt the use of unattributed citations from supposed self appointed experts to impose your opinion upon other reseponders within this thread, this exercise is to be based purely within your own experiences. If any attempt to commit Argumentum Ad Verecundiam is made, I have prepared written statements from the previous twenty-two World Champions in both MotoGP and FIM500 confirming their regular, and in some cases ongoing, usage of the rear brake. Some of these testimonies were admittedly gained through use of a Ouiji Board, but never the less they would be admitted accurate and admissible in court.

And so, without further ado, I would like to thank the small, but industrious and hard working Japanese men and women who designed, manufactured and mounted this wonderfully useful and well built device, known as the rear brake! As well my thanks to all those noisy Italian people, who work just as hard within their caves, creating artfully made pieces of wonder. They are a pleasure to use!
I'm am not sure though, whether to include the Korean manufacturers, though they too work hard: I am led to believe rear brakes of Korean origin are designed to be purely ornamental, and serve no practical function? Of the British, well we all know that though rear brakes are mounted, they are in fact actually only real ones which have been hollowed out. *

* I have it on good authority that this is in point of fact, not actually true. British rear brakes function entirely as per normal. Upon considering this, I have decided to add this information here as a footnote, as the phrase, "only real ones which have been hollowed out." is simply too fucking funny.

A List Of The Pragmatic And Practical Uses Of Rear Brakes

1. It reduces your velocity.

2. Traction control.

3. Wheelie control.

4. High and low speed stabilization.

These I would posit as the initial basic categories of rear brake usage. As, or indeed if, this thread progresses, we may create addendum's or adjuncts to this list of categories. Most, if not all of these techniques, are well within the skill level of a competent rider of one or two years experience. If you have sufficient motor neuron control to allow the touching of the nose with one or more of your digits, without causing damage to yourself or your loved ones, you should safely survive quite robust usage of your rear brake. The only major caveat which should be taken into consideration, would be motorcycles of the two-stroke variety, or motorcycles of very low capacity. These types of engines have a much greater propensity to allow the rear brake to cause a complete loss of rotative motion in the rear wheel due to very low levels of back torque. Please use your discretion, especially when on an unfamiliar motorcycle! On a larger capacity, multi-cylinder motorcycle, it is very difficult to induce so called "Rear Wheel Lock" without the use of the clutch do disengage the engine entirely, or not having ingested a form of psychotropic drug which may lead the muscular fitting.

It reduces your velocity - This category is relatively self explanatory. But within this category, you have an infinite variety of variation. Ranging from simple braking in conjunction with your front brake, to the finer demands of trail braking into corners and emergency braking. When braking from very high speed, a light dab of rear brake usage before bringing the front brakes into play will bring the bike into perfect line with the front wheel, as well as beginning the compression of the front forks. This helps the transition to full braking, stabilizing the bike. Many people, upon hearing of my penchant for trail braking as an everyday method of deceleration during cornering, have been driven to exclaim, "WTF, you is dum dude, why?!?!". To which I reply, "Cause I fucking love riding!!!". Generally at this point fingers are pointed, voices raised, prophecies are rendered, after which I go riding. Trail braking teaches you to love life, you can feel the road gripping the bike, you watch the road surface for every little ripple and chink, and control your traction with the brakes all the way to the tip in point. You can go right to the edge, and past, feeling the drift re-grip just as I lay it down. Thank god for riding, and bless her womanly hips for birthing this beautiful method of locomotion.

Traction control - Manys the time you many exit a low or mid speed corner, only to exclaim, "Mother Fucker! Where's my traction gone!", as your acceleration is reduced due to excessive power which in turn overwhelms the tractive ability of your geometry and rear tyre. During moments such as these, a modicum of controlled pressure applied to the rear brake pedal will help modulate these forces, thereby allowing the greater part of your accelerative forces to be utilized. On some occasions though, it can be more efficacious to allow a well controlled amount of wheel-spin to effect what is commonly know as the "Power-slide". This maneuver contributes extra centripetal force during acceleration, so allowing your turn rate to be maintained while simultaneously accelerating. The rear brake may still continue to be used to modulate your power output during this maneuver, and may very well prevent another commonly know, though less endearing maneuver, known as the "High-side".

Wheelie control - The "Wheelie" is a popular method for the demonstration of skill and superiority to your fellows, and as a proxy for sexual ability in attempts to attract the opposite gender. This appears to hold true in the majority of cases, though many times I have been left to wonder at which sex the persons involved were attempting to attract. The rear brake is again of primary importance during this maneuver, and it is said that Max Biaggi has a particular fondness for one rear brake pedal removed from his YZR500, which he has had gold plated and mounted on the door of his water closet. Apparently the mere sight of said gold plated pedal allows him an extremely rapid and free movement of the bowels. The usage of the rear brake allows the rider here to control any injudicious use of the throttle while in the midst of performing a "Wheelie", thereby returning the front wheel to Terra Firma without the attendant embarrassment which may otherwise occur.

High and low speed stabilization - The very act of activating the rear brake can alter the geometry of your motorcycle. Which judicious use, this can be put to your advantage. Lightly trailing the rear brake through a high speed sweeping turn gives the rear wheel a small amount of drag, which in turn causes the rear wheel to hold itself better in line with the motorcycles overall velocity vector. It also has the added effect of reducing front fork trail by slightly compressing the forks, and so temporarily increasing the ease with which you can initiate the application of centripetal force via the motorcycles clip-ons which are provided for the riders comfort during such maneuvers. A similar effect comes into force during lower speeds whilst attempting to turn, as well as the smoothing of the drive train and throttle lag. The application of a light dragging force through the rear brake whilst making a "U-Turn" can in many cases make this maneuver quite simple.

So there you have it! These are but a small sample of the amazing and thrilling maneuvers to which the rear brake can be of inestimable help. I look forward to hear from all of you who have overcome your fears regarding this indispensable device know as the rear brake, and to be regaled with stories of derth and daring!

And as a final note, "Fuck I Love Riding!!!".
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Old 25-06-2008, 07:30 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Bikes have front brakes?
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Old 25-06-2008, 07:41 AM   #40 (permalink)
 
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^^^ bwahaha

Good post devnull.

Chyna? Just as well you didn't get that assessor, he woulda failed your arse. <shakes head, walks away>
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