Problems with Charging System? - Fault Finding Guide

[Bendito]

I've just been through testing the charging system on the 'Blade, and thought I'd share what I've found
(Might even be worth getting stickied?)

I was directed to this fairly comprehensive flow chart, and, armed with a multimeter and a bit of knowledge, you should be able to track down your charging issue.
Click Here for the guide, from ElectroSport Industries.

To give a little background and help to understand what it is that might not be working, I'll try describe the main components of the charging system, and what might go wrong. Feel free to correct me anybody

To power your motorcycle, you have three main components. The Stator (or Alternator), the Regulator/Rectifier, and the Battery.

The Stator converts the motion of the engine into electricity, producing over 50V of AC current, and outputs this current to the Regulator/Rectifier.

The Regulator/Rectifier first "rectifies" the current to a DC current, then "regulates" it to around 12V, or more, depending on engine speed at the time.
This new regulated current is fed into the Battery.

The Battery is charged by this current while the bike is running, so it can perform it's main function, which is to start the engine. From a standstill, the battery will power the starter motor, which will then mean the Stator is producing electricity, completing the circle of life

A basic understanding of this system will help you begin to diagnose electrical problems. I found this page pretty informative too

First and simplest failure to fix is a faulty battery. When jump starting or push starting the bike will get it going, but it doesn't seem to recharge, you can take your battery to a battery place, or maybe an auto electrician to have the battery load-tested. If the battery is no good, replace it

If it seems like the battery is dead, but you've gone and had it load-tested, and it's not that, you will need to begin testing the rest of the charging system. It could be the stator, it could be the reg/rec, OR it could be a faulty connection somewhere between these components. Visually inspecting the different connectors for damaged/scorched wiring or tarnished/dirty contacts is a good start. If they are ok, the problem could be in either the stator or the reg/rec.

If either the Stator or the Reg/Rec fail, (in most cases) the bike will seem to behave like the battery is dead, failing to hold a charge. You may be able to run the bike for a while, but not start it next time, it may die on you mid-ride.
If a regulator/rectifier goes out in a big way, it could stop regulating the current, sending a much higher voltage out into your different components, possibly frying a lot of different things. I'd imagine this would have things like bulbs burning out, and magic smoke coming from different parts of your bike. If you think this may be happening, stop riding, before you fry anything important

Now, head to the top, open the Guide, and start hunting

I can't think of a great deal more to add to that, but Google, Wikipedia, and HowStuffWorks are all a great help if you want any more details on any of the bits mentioned above.

It seems mine has turned out to be a faulty stator, and using the guide, I was able to test the reg/rec on it's own, and it was fine. Very happy with the process, not so happy with the result

[ufatbarstard]

good links, thanks.

Vic @ auto rewind & m/ cycle electrics can rewind stators

9242 2388 ossie park

[Mr_FJ]

producing over 50V of AC current,

I think you meant to say 50Amp here

then "regulates" it to around 12V,

It will be higher than 12v otherwise there would be no point. A properly charging system should sit anywhere between around 13.2 - 13.5V up to 14.5V. Any higher and you will boil your battery. Any lower and it is not supplying enough power for some reason. The values may alter from time to time as well depending on the condition and charge state of the battery.



Not a bad guide, certainly there is nothing wrong with it.

At the end of the day usually the average person is not going to be able to tell if the stator is at fault with the charging system. And to be honest it hardly ever is the fault unless something serious has gone wrong. Usually it will only ever fail if for some reason its insulation surrounding the windings breaks down and it manages to earth itself.

One thing that is not mentioned here is the Diodes. There are usually 2 sets of 3 (three negative and three positive). This is what will allow an alternator in a car to convert AC into DC voltage. Now, Im not 100 percent sure if a motorcycles charging system has this prior to the Regulator as it is in an alternator on motorcars ,or if it is contained in the Regulator. My guess is that it is in the Regulator. (Have never worked on a motorcycle charging system) depending on the types of diodes used these can give you a lot of grief especially when the charging system is outputting a high current for an extended period of time. They will usually get very hot and burnout or melt internally and short to ground. As I suspect these are in the Regulator on most bikes, this would explain why the regulators would be the week part of the link and fail alot of the time and are usually quite expensive to replace.

There is probably more I could write in here but its late and the light from the monitor is hurting my eyes

Maybe I'll check here again tomorrow and add a bit more.

[edmands_3]

Also worth noting that the stator can be tested. My manual tells you to measure resistance at one of the connectors in the wiring loom. If the resisitances aren't within a certain range then it says to replace the stator. The troubleshooting procedure in my manual is as follows: (note that this is for a V-star 250, although most of the tests should be relevant to most other bikes).

1. Check fuses - replace fuses if blown, otherwise continue to next test
2. Check battery connections, fluid levels, specific gravity - replace battery if broken, otherwise continue to next test
3. Measure charging voltage across the battery at 5000rpm, should be 14-15V - replace battery if charging voltage is correct, replace rectifier/regulator if charging voltage is more than 15V, continue to next test if charging voltage is less than 13V.
4. Measure stator coil resistances - replace if out of spec, otherwise continue to next test
5. Check entire charging system for poor connections and rectify any problems found
6. If no other problems found, replace rectifier/regulator as it is faulty.

[Nero Diablo]

I think you meant to say 50Amp here



It will be higher than 12v otherwise there would be no point. A properly charging system should sit anywhere between around 13.2 - 13.5V up to 14.5V. Any higher and you will boil your battery. Any lower and it is not supplying enough power for some reason. The values may alter from time to time as well depending on the condition and charge state of the battery.

Nope He means 50 Volts AC, current and voltage are two seperate measurements. Bike charging systems usually produce between 15 and 50 amps but this is usually measured on the DC side of the system.

If you think of it like a gravity feed water supply ie a tank with a hose out of it. Voltage represents how much preasure you get out of the hose ie how far the tank is up the hill, sometimes refered to potenital rather than voltage.

Current represents the volume you get out of the hose which for the purpose of this description is restricted by the diameter of the hose why starter motors usually have dirty fat wires to it and things like indicators only have small diameter wires.

NB this current vs voltage is a rude a crude description just so physics nerds don't start wading in howling how I have ignored electron flow etc etc.

[Bendito]

Just to clarify, the main point of the post was the fault-finding guide I linked to at the start, the rest of it was me trying to easily explain the charging system for those that don't know much about it (like me about a week or two ago ).

One thing that is not mentioned here is the Diodes. There are usually 2 sets of 3 (three negative and three positive). This is what will allow an alternator in a car to convert AC into DC voltage. Now, Im not 100 percent sure if a motorcycles charging system has this prior to the Regulator as it is in an alternator on motorcars ,or if it is contained in the Regulator. My guess is that it is in the Regulator. (Have never worked on a motorcycle charging system) depending on the types of diodes used these can give you a lot of grief especially when the charging system is outputting a high current for an extended period of time. They will usually get very hot and burnout or melt internally and short to ground. As I suspect these are in the Regulator on most bikes, this would explain why the regulators would be the week part of the link and fail alot of the time and are usually quite expensive to replace.

Most motorcycles have a combined Regulator/Rectifier, I beleive this is what you are talking about.

Also worth noting that the stator can be tested. My manual tells you to measure resistance at one of the connectors in the wiring loom. If the resisitances aren't within a certain range then it says to replace the stator. The troubleshooting procedure in my manual is as follows: (note that this is for a V-star 250, although most of the tests should be relevant to most other bikes).

That is all covered in the flow chart thingamajig I linked too

[Mikeymikemike]

i think one of those components has died on me, either stator or reg/rec

any idea how much those cost to fix or replace?

[Mockery]

could be up to a few hundred dollars, depends which one is cactus. Do the tests and find out.
Also depends where you go. Shop around.

[Bendito]

Not off the top of my head without knowing what kind of bike it is... *shrug*

Maybe give your local dealer a call tomorrow morning

[Nero Diablo]

You can get an aftermarket reg rectifyed for a ATV that fits "most" bikes for around 60-80$ but without some fault finding and eleminating other items in the charging system it is impossible to tell.

[Bendito]

Bumping this, cos I need it. Again.

[Mockery]

Ben if you need a rectifier, I've got a Yamaha Raptor one which I haven't used.

[Bendito]

Thanks dude, but the results are in, and survey says... stator

[Rick76]

Just another tip.... if anyone discovers they need a new battery.

I purchased a 'Himura' branded battery from a bike dealer for $120 a few months back. I recently noticed that Kmart (Midland Gate) are now stocking 'Exide' bike batteries. The price for the one I needed was about $40 cheaper (possibly more) at Kmart and looked identical to the one I bought (sticker on top even looked the same). So maybe check them or some other battery specialists out first before rushing off to a bike dealer.

To the bike dealers, maybe you can get your stock from Kmart and whack 50% margin on. You might save on freight costs as well.

[wolfy_9005]

The Stator converts the motion of the engine into electricity, producing over 50V of AC current, and outputs this current to the Regulator/Rectifier.

I thought it was 3-phase, not AC, correct me if i am wrong. For a car alternator it produces 3-phase, then the diodes(built into the alternator itself) rectify it into DC, skipping the AC phase. And 50V sounds about right, but it depends on the speed it is spinning i think, but the diodes/regulator/reciftier should keep it constant. If it isnt working the battery would'nt last long :p

When in doubt, sit on the toilet and think about what what could be wrong. Trust me, it works.

[Nero Diablo]

I thought it was 3-phase, not AC, correct me if i am wrong. For a car alternator it produces 3-phase, then the diodes(built into the alternator itself) rectify it into DC, skipping the AC phase. And 50V sounds about right, but it depends on the speed it is spinning i think, but the diodes/regulator/reciftier should keep it constant. If it isnt working the battery would'nt last long :p

When in doubt, sit on the toilet and think about what what could be wrong. Trust me, it works.

Some newer bikes have three phase most bikes however have twin/single phase (depending on how you want to look at it) with a centre tap. The Diodes are in the rectifyer which also carries out regulation and why it has dirty great stinking heat sinks on it. The rough ready rule of thumb is 50V at 5000rpm, as bikes have relatively few electrical accesories past ignition and maybe fuel injection you'll get a hour to a couple of hours of running out of the average bike battery before it starts to affect how the bike runs. The other variation on a bike is a lot of them don't charge at idle.

[darkfibre]

I thought it was 3-phase, not AC, correct me if i am wrong. For a car alternator it produces 3-phase, then the diodes(built into the alternator itself) rectify it into DC, skipping the AC phase. And 50V sounds about right, but it depends on the speed it is spinning i think, but the diodes/regulator/reciftier should keep it constant. If it isnt working the battery would'nt last long :p

3-phase by definition is AC.
The 50v is right, but is dependant totaly on engine speed. This voltage is generated by permanent magnets rotating past the stator, inducing a current in the stator. This in then converted to DC by the diodes (rectifier) and then regulated.
Most bikes regulate the output with a combined regulator/rectifier, because the charging components are fixed (magnets and stator winding ratios).

Cars on the other hand regulate the input. Fixed magnets are not used, instead the magnetic field is created in a controlled manner using a electro magnet (rotor). Using this system gives more control and works better at low speeds etc.

Before correcting me, accept that this desciption is simplified

[wolfy_9005]

3-phase by definition is AC.

Kk, was just a thought i had :p Wasnt dissing your work, just asking.

[Bendito]

Fault Finding Guide - Motorcycle Electrical Fault Finding Guide - ElectroSport Industries

Old link in first post was broken