LWTK: Cryonics and your soul

[Lozzle]

Cryonics.

The preservation of the legally dead with the hope that sometime in the future they can be revived. Interesting tidbit, you're kept at sub -130ºC.

I've been reading a lot on this subject and there's a metric f-load of info and opinions around.

You need to be 'frozen' asap. So, once you die, you need to be kept going with CPR to ensure your body doesn't start shutting down. To put it an concisely as possible, you're pumped with biological cryoprotectants into your blood stream that vitrify and your body placed in a massive thermos until d-day.

My initial questioning is regarding the unseen. I'm by no way religious, but what do you reckon happens to your soul or spirit (if you believe we have one) when you become a cryonics patient?

- Do you think it hangs around until you're brought back to life (if this is ever possible)?
- When does the soul leave the body - when your heart stops? Or when all your cells are dead? Or when your brain shuts down?
- Would it 'come back' when you're awoken because it's tied to your body in some way?

[Lefty]

I would say that the people engaging in cryogenics probably aren't the people that engage in belief about a soul or spirit.

Why go to the effort if you believe that when you die you'll (presumably) go to a better place?

[The Saint]

Ooh! Ooh! I know!

[BennyT]

awesome pickup

personally i reckon itll all be there cos technically ur not dead.
buuuuuuut i doubt theyll do any of this as itll be more for people with terminal diseases etc thatll get icecubed

[Taylor]

Wouldn't you have that screaming moment in the afterlife as you start floating away from the lesbian cloud? Before falling with a rush back into your body?

What's the elasticity of a cell like? I only ask because in case -130 is going to rupture all your cells?

[Lozzle]

Originally Posted by BennyT

buuuuuuut i doubt theyll do any of this as itll be more for people with terminal diseases etc thatll get icecubed

^^ pets have been cryo'd. Anyone can get "ice cubed", depends on if you wanna spend the money doing so. Also, technically you're not being iced up, that would require freezing water, whereas you're being all gummed up with cryoprotectants.

Originally Posted by Taylor

What's the elasticity of a cell like? I only ask because in case -130 is going to rupture all your cells?

I think they've got that figured with the cryoprotectants. Scientist have 'brought back' insects using the same methods BUT I guess they haven't exactly been cryo'd for all that long - who knows what long term effects it'll have!

Originally Posted by Lefty

I would say that the people engaging in cryogenics probably aren't the people that engage in belief about a soul or spirit.

Why go to the effort if you believe that when you die you'll (presumably) go to a better place?

I read most people who've undergone Cryo are the type to believe there is no higher place to go, so you have a valid point, however I'm sure there are some people who are all hanging in giant thermos's who maybe DID believe there was another place but are in it for the fame when they're revived.

[Lozzle]

Reckon being cryo'd is selfish?
Your family may not be able to 'say goodbye' when they know you're in a giant fridge.

What would visiting hours at a Cryo Facility be like?

[nath]

I think that if you used a name brand, good quality freezer, your soul would also keep well for extended periods of time.

[Bendito]

Test ride a bunch of different freezers, and jump in the one you like best

[Desmogod]

This is why cryonics will only ever be viable for redheads.

[Hornet]

Awesome question... I reckon your soul freezes with it and you have no idea of the concept of time until your body is thawed out and revived or starts to rot.

In terms of dead or alive, there is clinically dead and brain dead. The body can survive for minutes, hours, days and even weeks when brain dead. Clinically dead means circulation and breathing has stopped, but the brain can still be active, although not for long.

Seeing that our personality, thoughts, dreams, everything we are, come from the brain, then the soul would more than likely be linked to that part of us... if you believe we have souls and an afterlife. You'd have to assume that cryogenic suspension occurs before being brain dead, but that brain activity is reduced to such a low rate (so low as to not be measurable) that it can be sustained nearly indefinitely.

I'd still be worried about cell damage, though, as our cells contain water and unrepairable damage occurs to our cells when they are frozen, due to water expanding and rupturing the cell walls. There is a frog in NZ (I think) that has a type of anti-freeze in it's cells but, AFAIK, we can't just pump that into our bodies and prevent cellular damage, yet.

[Bendito]

I reckon it stays with the body

[nath]

Originally Posted by Bendito

Test ride a bunch of different freezers, and jump in the one you like best

exactly..

No one can tell you what cryogenic environment is bes for you... you really have to try it for yourself..

Those little snap lock bags that change colour to show they are sealed might also be a good investment.

[Lozzle]

Originally Posted by Hornet

Awesome question... I reckon your soul freezes with it and you have no idea of the concept of time until your body is thawed out and revived or starts to rot.

In terms of dead or alive, there is clinically dead and brain dead. The body can survive for minutes, hours, days and even weeks when brain dead. Clinically dead means circulation and breathing has stopped, but the brain can still be active, although not for long.

Seeing that our personality, thoughts, dreams, everything we are, come from the brain, then the soul would more than likely be linked to that part of us... if you believe we have souls and an afterlife. You'd have to assume that cryogenic suspension occurs before being brain dead, but that brain activity is reduced to such a low rate (so low as to not be measurable) that it can be sustained nearly indefinitely.

I'd still be worried about cell damage, though, as our cells contain water and unrepairable damage occurs to our cells when they are frozen, due to water expanding and rupturing the cell walls. There is a frog in NZ (I think) that has a type of anti-freeze in it's cells but, AFAIK, we can't just pump that into our bodies and prevent cellular damage, yet.

Yep, that's why the facility wants you to be kept clinically dead until they can inject you with the protectant goop.

Reckon when we're 'thawed' we'll retain memory? provided our cells have made it through the process.


(Am enjoying reading the comedic replies, Thread De-railers )

[Kryzaach]

Here's an intersting conundrum for you, that doesn't require thinking about souls.

Assuming we are just the sum of our parts and we have the technology to reconstruct things on the most fundamental level..

If you were to be broken down into your constituent atoms and reassembled in a new location. i.e. Teleported:

Would you still be you. I don't mean you as in, "Identifiably you from the outside looking in", rather; Would you still have the same sense of self.

Typically the answer is yes..

But here's where it gets interesting.

What if the data stream was duplicated and you were reconstructed twice. Which one would be you?

Your answer can't be neither, remember, we're assuming we are the sum of our parts.

[Taylor]

You're destroyed at the source and rebuilt at the new location, to everyone else you're the same. Wouldn't matter how many times you were recreated, the original was eliminated.

I won't be using one.

You can say neither; paticlising and getting Newtonian on the particle locations, then turning that into a data stream, isn't keeping the parts. The particles will drift off into nothing, the recording of their relation to one another is what's left of you, but it's an observation, no matter how deep and thorough, it's not actually you anymore.

[Kryzaach]

I said without assuming you have a soul Taylor...


Edit: Also "Most Fundamental Level"

[Maxo]

Originally Posted by Kryzaach

I said without assuming you have a soul Taylor...

Then you would be both, not in a linked consciousness sort of way, but since you have the same memories you would both think you are the initial you (which movie did I see this in?).

(in a spiritual sense)
Does this also happen for monozygotic twins?

[The Saint]

Doesn't the answer lie in the fact that we understand the objective personal pronouns "you", "me", "he" and "she" to refer to a single unique being?

According to your hypothetical, the single unique being has been replicated.

So the answer to the question "if the data stream was duplicated and you were reconstructed twice, which one would be a single unique being" is necessarily neither.

Originally Posted by Kryzaach

Your answer can't be neither

Rats' cocks.

[Infusi0n]

What condition are people being frozen away in? Certainly not the prime of their life. Given the rate of inflation your money will be worth far less if you are awoken at all. Reality check, cryogenics isn't, won't and will never be feasible because in 100-200 years I highly doubt the government is going to allow you to be thawed just so they can pay your useless old ass a pension (that probably wont exist). Let alone the concept of technology shock, the complete lack of family/social structure, lack of general knowledge about anything relevant to that period of time.

Ignoring the question about the soul, you are dead (brain dead) and in 100 years you will still be brain dead, just with cryopreservatives stopping your corpse from rotting.