RWTK: Electric Vehicles. Would you?

[submit]

Well the new era is here with the release of production electric cars and motorcycles such as the Nissan LEAF and the ZERO and Brammo motorcycles. There are even people racing them at the Australian TTXGP.

Would you jump on the boat of sustainability today (if you could) and purchase one of these?

[Desmo]

Sure, as soon as the power used to charge the batteries doesn't come from coal and they don't make more of an impact to produce and run than ICE vehicles do.
I have no issues with sustainability, but these electric vehicles are a load of bollocks.

[PBF]

Probably something obvious, but ICE vehicles?

[Captain Starfish]

Not a load of bollocks, they're an important point along the development curve.

But whs regardless. Early adopters who want to do this "on principle" can go nuts, the energy source and energy cost is still a concern.

Most importantly, though: I'd consider it when the TCO and performance are comparable to ic engines (presently, they're nowhere near competitive) .

[xphread]

I've gone half way already and saving a bucketload in fuel and maintenance bills.
The talk of energy used to create outweighing the energy saved is a myth propagated to justify inaction.
Average prius does over 300kms before battery replacement. Which equates to a saving of ~10-15,000L of fuel. (depending on what car you compare it to)
Battery replacement is less than 4K and the batteries are recycled, so its not as if you loose all the energy of creating them.

I would definately look at fully electric next time I need a new car... but I suspect we will get the dregs for a few years yet. (look at the lack and lag of hybrid options compared to whats available in the US?)
I currently pay for green electricity, so it would be power by sustainable energy - unless Synergy are being fraudlent.

Have half a converted scooter project underway (just need more time and a shed which is what is taking my time before I can continue the scooter) and have half the bits for a bike conversion after that.

As mankinifish said.. its an important stepping stone - as were the early use of cars that needed people walking infront of them - before infrastructure caught up.

[Desmo]

Probably something obvious, but ICE vehicles?

Internal combustion engine.

[Barfridge]

Watch the latest Top Gear (season 15, episode 6) for why I wouldn't touch a fully electric vehicle with a bargepole.

Spoiler: show

They tested the nissan leaf and peugot <something>, 100 mile range, 10-13 hour charge times from dead empty. Plus when it was flat, they couldn't find anywhere to charge the cars, so it took them 2 days to do 300km

And currently diesels are about as efficient as hybrids, without all the overheads of batteries.

There is no infrastructure for charging them anywhere, the charging process takes forever, and the green credentials as a total package are not as impressive as they first appear.

[submit]

why wait for a few years when the Nissan LEAF is due to be released mid next year?
I'm not sure why Australia waits so long since the vehicle has been available in the US since 2010.

Mind you the US has a lot more of options going in term of green energy by the number of wind turbines and solar energy stations that they have in their country.
Perhaps something for our government to think about. Or maybe some big shot in a petrolium company is making too much money from the oil crisis?

However i must admit that my view is somewhat biased due to occupation.
The range of the Nissan LEAF is about 100-120km, takes 8 hours to charge from your home powerpoint or 25 minutes to charge from a high powered charging station provided by other parties.
Not a lot considering how much driving Perth people do a day. But an economic approach if you commute.
The other factor is the cost of the vehicle. The vehicle cost $36k in the US but we know with our inflated economy especially in WA we will be expecting the vehicle in the 40-45k zone.

Again considering a Hyundai i30 with full options cost $30k i would dare say a lot of people will be making the switch.

[out_in_front]

There is a new supercapacitor that has been developed that can contain an energy density about 30% less than petrol (only this year) - however when a petrol engine runs it has about 30-35% efficiency, when an electric motor runds it has closer to 95% efficiency - Ie you can have more power at a significantly reduced weight compared to a petrol tank. Now an electric engine of the same power as a petrol engine weighs less and has only one moving part. Super capacitors can be charged in a small fraction of the time it takes to charge a vehicle - in the order of a few minutes for full charge and around a minute fro a 70-80% charge.

So as soon as there is a vehicle with that sort of supercapacitor in it (probably still 5+ years from mass production) It becomes feasible to run a car on electricity - although due to the large current flows you will still need a 'filling station' as the infrastructure to deliver that much current to your home would be rediculous. So this system still protects servo owners from redundancy.

[Desmo]

Got a link to this super cap? Interested.

[Barfridge]

Submit: that's all well and good if all you ever want to do is commute to and from work, and go down to the shops. If that's all you need a vehicle for, buy a scooter

But what if you want to go to Margaret River for the weekend? So you get to Bunbury and your battery is just about flat, what do you do then?
You'd need to have a second conventional vehicle, which negates the point of having an electric car to start with

[submit]

Like i said the driving distance is not alot to think of,
however for busy traffic commuting such as city driving especially when you'll get stuck in a traffic jam for 2 hours like over east the electric car will be a more attractive solution than that 4L V10 4WD

once there are infrastructures set up (ie. charging stations), I would assume they will work exactly the same way service stations do.
versatility gives people options to be efficient for the purpose of use.
i think we should provide people with those options.
certainly a better investment than something like the national broadband plan...

[Barfridge]

I'll think about it when there is infrastructure in place, prices come down and range/charging times improve.

Until then, they're about as useful as tits on a bull

[Captain Starfish]

why wait for a few years when the Nissan LEAF is due to be released mid next year?... The range of the Nissan LEAF is about 100-120km, takes 8 hours to charge from your home powerpoint or 25 minutes to charge from a high powered charging station provided by other parties.

You've answered your own question.

100-120km for an 8 hour charge (or 25 minutes from a charging station that no-one has or that charges for power at triple the going rate).

vs

1000km for a 3 minute "charge".

Not to mention performance (ie "go") of the vehicle during the 100-120km.

If/when the superdupercapacimatater is fitted standard to a reasonably available car, you still have the issue that a standard 10A GPO is only going to charge at 2400W. Meaning overnight charging at home and being screwed if you run out anywhere else.

Fix all this shit and it becomes attractive, in the meantime it's a noble intention that falls way short of the convenience offered by conventional engines.

[shmoo]

bit like the old chicken or the egg argument.

until the infrastructure is there, no one will buy the vehicles.
until people buy the vehicles, no one will build the infrastructure.

that means it's going to require government investment to get it up and running, because it's not going to be commercially viable for a hell of a long time.

[Barfridge]

I see hydrogen as a much more viable alternative when compared to electric.

[Roger Explosion]

Electric Car? No, due to range and recharging issues.

Electric Bike? Hell yeah. They look like a blast to ride.

[Captain Starfish]

Barfy - or methanol.

Interesting looking at what's being developed in the fuel cell arena, where the fuel cells (limited output capacity) charge normal batteries which can handle peak load.

Given that whatever starts has to stop, a battery powered hybrid vehicle which is recharged with a methanol cell and regenerative braking might be easier to adopt... Still have the issue of supply (which petro is going to put in methanol bowsers without a big kick from somewhere?)

[devolved]

I think we have a tendency to still think in 'old' terms, in regards to transport. Car sharing and car-pooling will become much more socially acceptable.

Maybe you will have a hybrid for long journeys and more driving days, but generally you will have a 'lease' electric car that you use. Instead of 'quick-charge' stations, it will be a 'battery replace'. Drive in, slip out the almost flat battery, slide in the new fully-charged one, drive away. We're just waiting for the oil barrons and illuminati to work out how they can stitch up the market, then it will happen.

[Barfridge]

methanol still produces carbons, and kills dolphins/rapes rainforests.

Green energy powering a desal plant then an electrolysis plant will clean and then separate O2 and H2.
When you burn it all you get is H2O. There's pretty much zero carbon in that whole cycle.