Burgess to blame for Rossi this year?

[jaseyjase]

Not my opinion, but i read an interesting comment made on crash.net, not an article, just a random pleb comment on one of the articles on Stoners Victory, but i thought it maybe an interesting talking point.

Essentially the guy says JB was just lucky to be involved with super talented riders who were the real reason for their sucess, and now that the rider is facing real problems, JB hasnt got the slightest clue on what to do, hence the demise of Rossi.

Thoughts?

[D'Artagnan]

Must be tough having to deal with the rider, a team of existing engineers and high expectations. It's a team, they all need to accept some portion of the blame. There has been a long history of the Ducati engineers continuing with some things that didn't work and while they've made changes this year to the 11.1 bike, it appears not to have helped much so perhaps there's some truth in JBs comments.

I wonder how much influence or say JB actually has?

[BlackFZR]

Bikes which have had the design input of John Burgess (Honda 500CC's, Yamaha M1's) have all shown that they are able to be ridden by more than one rider, and have done very successfully outside of his direct rider relationship. Sadly for the last three years, the Ducati bike design has shown that it is not fantastic for a wide variety of riders.

Given that almost all the riders who compete in the MotoGP are all ex world champions in one class or another, or runner-ups, I'd suggest that they all have the talent to ride most bikes extremely well. The fact that Nicky Hayden, Loris Capirossi, Tony Elias, Chaz Davies, Marco Melandri, Sete Gibernaue all have ridden a Ducati at some stage since 2008 and apart from Casey Stoner haven't finished higher than 7th in the Championship (Hayden in 2010) or after that 12th by Elias in 2009, is a pretty good indication that it is the Ducati design.... Where as if you looked at the manufacturers Burgess has helped develope bikes for, I'm sure the statistics would be a whole lot better......

[mystery]

JB made a pretty interesting comment on the weekend about not receiving the right kind of feedback from Rossi so they could make improvements. Either way this year is a write off, they've got something very different for next year and as much as I'm a Casey Stoner fanboy, I'd like to see Rossi back up the front of the field.

It's JB's job to make the bike work for Valentino, something I think they are working towards albeit at a typically slow Italian pace.

[Xuaxace]

It's JB's job to make the bike work for Valentino, something I think they are working towards albeit at a typically slow Italian pace.

To be fair, with the extremly limiting testing allowed (to reduce cost), the amount of improvements they can do seems limited.

[D'Artagnan]

They've had years to get it right. Smells more like an inability to accept the design is flawed. It simply hasn't worked. In fact there was a comment made when Casey won on the thing along the lines of "now that someone can ride the bike, they'll slow the pace of fixing it"..Seems about right.

[thro]

Given that almost all the riders who compete in the MotoGP are all ex world champions in one class or another, or runner-ups, I'd suggest that they all have the talent to ride most bikes extremely well. The fact that Nicky Hayden, Loris Capirossi, Tony Elias, Chaz Davies, Marco Melandri, Sete Gibernaue all have ridden a Ducati at some stage since 2008 and apart from Casey Stoner haven't finished higher than 7th in the Championship (Hayden in 2010) or after that 12th by Elias in 2009, is a pretty good indication that it is the Ducati design.... Where as if you looked at the manufacturers Burgess has helped develope bikes for, I'm sure the statistics would be a whole lot better......

Pretty much this.

Also.... the carbon airbox/frame and stressed engine was a change made in 09. The 07 bike, which stoner won the championship on is NOT THE SAME BIKE that everyone has been having problems with.

The 07 had a rocketship motor in it (the Jap manufacturers got caught with their pants down on that one), and a traditional ducati trellis frame - in preseason testing they were already a full second faster than HRC at Motegi and clocking upwards of 335km/h).

The later versions with engine longevity to deal with and carbon airbox/frame have been a lot less successful. Yes, stoner has done better than anyone else on it, however he was also no doubt significantly involved in its development (not saying he told them what to do, but he would have been involved heavily in the test sessions and giving input on what direction things should be heading in - stuff like "this feels better" or "this feels worse").

Stoner himself did not perform as well on the more recent bikes. He had a huge run of front end crashes, exactly the same thing rossi has been complaining about all year (no confidence in the front).

The development on the bike has had several years of either stagnation or going in the wrong direction as anyone other than stoner's opinion was ignored or written off by ducati as irrelevant because stoner could make it work. Ducati now have egg all over face, as they can't claim it is the rider now they have 2 former world champions on it and both are struggling (along with the rest of the ducati field)



The'll get it sorted - having an actual chassis they can tune, rather than having to replace engines to alter flex will certainly help - on the GP11/11.1 they simply ran out of adjustment range on the limited adjustments they could make.



edit:
capirossi and bayliss finished 4th and 6th in the championship on the GP3.... given that capirossi had issues with the more recent versions i think that is only further confirmation that the bike design went downhill at some point.

[Grin]

Ducati is about on par with the Italian government at the moment

All jokes aside, arguably the best rider of all time and an engineer with some of the best credentials in the paddock can't get things this wrong. As others have said, a fundemental design flaw that up until now Ducati have been too stubborn (arrogant, proud etc) to admit. Maybe Livio Suppo saw the writing on the wall when he jumped ship?

[Jamathi]

Did Liveo Suppo see the crayonscriblings on the Ducati board room?
He did and did see the outstanding ability of CS while being his Ducati race team boss.
He went to "Boss" of Honda Racing team , proposed the switch opportunities of contracting CS to the then unsuccesfull atempt by Honda to win MotoGP.
The switch was a long time in the making from the time CS was unable to ride due to his illness and the Marlboro Boardmember, some Brazilian knob, who wanted CS out and Lorenzo in.
P.S.
At no time was Turbo R1 even mentioned nor contemplated as an alternative.

[drew74]

simple i reckon........ducati is pig headed, JB is a legend and they should listen, and Stoner is the only person on Earth that can ride a bike like that to victory..

[thro]

Did Liveo Suppo see the crayonscriblings on the Ducati board room?He did and did see the outstanding ability of CS while being his Ducati race team boss.He went to "Boss" of Honda Racing team , proposed the switch opportunities of contracting CS to the then unsuccesfull atempt by Honda to win MotoGP.The switch was a long time in the making from the time CS was unable to ride due to his illness and the Marlboro Boardmember, some Brazilian knob, who wanted CS out and Lorenzo in.P.S.At no time was Turbo R1 even mentioned nor contemplated as an alternative.

lorenzo v stoner on equal equipment would be great to watch.i don't think you'd see stoner running away with it AT ALL

[Rhino]

He wouldn't have run away from Pedrosa if his season was injury and incident free.

Stoner had a good win, but it wasn't the pantsing that it appears to have been.
It would have gone down to Valencia.

[GD66]

P.S. At no time was Turbo R1 even mentioned nor contemplated as an alternative.

Now Bert, you and I both know that's not quite true, is it ?

IN actual fact, Turbo R1 was considered for the ride but Honda management, Dorna and the FIM representatives all agreed that he hadn't had enough experience round Collie.
Very disappointing...

[Jamathi]

He wouldn't have run away from Pedrosa if his season was injury and incident free.

Stoner had a good win, but it wasn't the pantsing that it appears to have been.
It would have gone down to Valencia.

The dwarf has had 5 + years to winn the title and so far I cannot see his name on the winners trophy.
This misbake has had every year a cockup or breakdown as an excuse.
Next year this porcelein puppet will be relplace with Marques!
Regarding Turbsy and possible considerations in MotoGP, Sadly he went like Ant West and choose a kwakakwakaducty as his weapon of choice disguised as a Pacman ping pong machine.
BAD CAREER MOVE!

[Rhino]

Who gives a fuck if he's had 5 shit years.

Half of me wants him to beat Stoner next year just so you'll shut the fuck up about it.

[jules_1972]

Early days IMHO..
JB with the Dr will get it sorted.

[g0zer]

if the bike was developed to suit stoner maybe they shouldnt try to change the bike, but ride it like stoner

The 07 bike, which stoner won the championship on is NOT THE SAME BIKE that everyone has been having problems with.

The 07 had a rocketship motor in it (the Jap manufacturers got caught with their pants down on that one), and a traditional ducati trellis frame

the first year of 800cc motoGP everyone was saying how honda was going to smack everyone and 800cc suited big budget. i never understood if it was ducati went backwards, or the japanese teams development just outpaced them really quickly.

Early days IMHO..
JB with the Dr will get it sorted.

ducati should have worked hard to retain stoner paired with rossi. dont think there is a salary cap when it comes to GP riders. rossi has to peak sometime, and its peak rossi time now but his experience in developing fast bikes remains unparalleled. paired with stoner riding at his peak how could ducati not have won more gps?

[Jamathi]

Who gives a fuck if he's had 5 shit years.

Half of me wants him to beat Stoner next year just so you'll shut the fuck up about it.

Sadly this is not going to happen.
Hope you have a nice day you big wheelie disaster!

[96]

How the hell can you possibly say "it's peak Rossi time now"? I mean, it simply isn't. I've never been a Rossi fan, but fuck me dead, that man 'could' ride a bike. Sit, watch, few Laps left, pass, run, win. It was too easy for him. But that is gone, he's still a good rider, bit to say this right now is his peak, is far from any form of logical truth.

I'd say this coming year will be his last. Either he gets his shit together, and ducati provides the bike and they get some results to end on, or they don't and its a simple 'fuck it, let's move on' and try and find another stoner from the ranks. Either way, I don't see him on the grid for 2013, either by his choice, or ducatis.

[g0zer]

Hbit to say this right now is his peak, is far from any form of logical truth.

sorry i was confusing, like peak oil on the way down.