Burgess to blame for Rossi this year?

[thro]

if the bike was developed to suit stoner maybe they shouldnt try to change the bike, but ride it like stoner

Motogp is about advancing the art.

Why build bikes only one person in the world can ride, and then be fucked when he leaves, rather than build bikes that most world champions can deal with?


Honda may have spent money on the 800s at the start, but they still got caught with their pants around their knees. Maybe ducati made a different longevity / power trade off. They were certainly pushing harder on the fuel capacity. I think they basically pushed things harder and took more risk on board. Honda don't like risk, and do their best to engineer it out (hence, easy to ride bikes that have motors that last forever).

This year was certainly different. Honda had a whitewash. Stoner even had a spare, un-crated RC212v motor left over for fucks sake.... if it was to start getting tight, they had plenty of engine longevity to trade away for power if needed this year.


Rossi is having problems with the ducati that stoner himself was complaining about. Rather than ride through it and risk crashing, he wants to fix the bike first. Stoner just crashed, or dealt with picking the bike up off the ground mid corner.

[out_in_front]

FWIW - I have heard Burgess say that Ducati dont have the money required to do what they did with Yamaha etc and turn the bike around within one season. Yamaha threw a heap of money at the project when they hired valentino and the team to make sure they came out on top.

[speed3]

Rossi is having problems with the ducati that stoner himself was complaining about. Rather than ride through it and risk crashing, he wants to fix the bike first. Stoner just crashed, or dealt with picking the bike up off the ground mid corner.

That's assuming ducati were willing to let Stoner drastically change the bike though, I'd say he'd have wanted change as much as Rossi does.

[thro]

^^ true, 100% agreed.

from what has been reported, they refused to believe there is a problem with the bike, until rossi has come along, to basically confirm that the entire motogp field think its a POS and needs major work.

I think stoner just had bigger balls than most to ride through it and deal with the potential of coming off.... as he did with the multiple front end loses....

[fredie]

rossi old and worried
casey young hungry

[EEKNOWS]

According to the latest AMCN Rossi said frankly "Maybe we ask to change the wrong things". What 2011 did is euthinase the long held belief of Rossi/JB supreme development skills. All fine when you have Furusawa-san to put the plan into action, but when your on your own and get exactly what you ask for.

[Actix]

In reality it is pretty clear that Stoner and Lorenzo are the two best riders in the paddock and have been for a number of years. Rossi did not want to ride in the same team as either of them and engineered it to ensure that was the case. Rossi is clearly a great rider but he presided over a pretty weak period, this is not the case at the moment. On equal machinery I would still back Lorenzo, Stoner or even Pedrosa nowadays.

[The Nurse 40]

Now Bert, you and I both know that's not quite true, is it ?

IN actual fact, Turbo R1 was considered for the ride but Honda management, Dorna and the FIM representatives all agreed that he hadn't had enough experience round Collie.
Very disappointing...

TuRBZ : one of the most awesomest racers at barbs... thanks for your coaching, friendship and expertise up there =)

[thro]

According to the latest AMCN Rossi said frankly "Maybe we ask to change the wrong things". What 2011 did is euthinase the long held belief of Rossi/JB supreme development skills. All fine when you have Furusawa-san to put the plan into action, but when your on your own and get exactly what you ask for.

No, 2011 proved that building the engine as a stressed member of the chassis, when you have limited engines (as per the current rules) is retarded.

Want to change the mounts? sorry, new engine out of your allotment. This limited what ducati could do in a massive way. Carbon chassis is also likely a lot more difficult to modify in the field. Aluminium? Can add material or remove material with a welder or a grinder. Getting carbon modified means re-applying carbon/resin/re-baking, etc.



Unlimited engines? Ducati/Burgess/Rossi would have had a much easier time of it. Essentially, they ran out of adjustment, and were then fucked and unable to get the changes they wanted. Until they got a new engine...

[aesch]

In reality it is pretty clear that Stoner and Lorenzo are the two best riders in the paddock and have been for a number of years. Rossi did not want to ride in the same team as either of them and engineered it to ensure that was the case. Rossi is clearly a great rider but he presided over a pretty weak period, this is not the case at the moment. On equal machinery I would still back Lorenzo, Stoner or even Pedrosa nowadays.

Collin Edwards, student of the game and very close to it called Rossi GOAT. Many journalists, racers argue who is greater, Rossi spoken about as often as Agostini and MD. Rarefied air that, not sure about your reference to "weak period," maybe you know more than they.

Rossi may well not have wished to ride in the same team as Stoner or Lorenzo, not sure the reasons are as "clear" as you believe, though you may be right, who would know, Rossi?

[EEKNOWS]

No, 2011 proved that building the engine as a stressed member of the chassis, when you have limited engines (as per the current rules) is retarded.

Want to change the mounts? sorry, new engine out of your allotment. This limited what ducati could do in a massive way. Carbon chassis is also likely a lot more difficult to modify in the field. Aluminium? Can add material or remove material with a welder or a grinder. Getting carbon modified means re-applying carbon/resin/re-baking, etc.



Unlimited engines? Ducati/Burgess/Rossi would have had a much easier time of it. Essentially, they ran out of adjustment, and were then fucked and unable to get the changes they wanted. Until they got a new engine...

I don't think any of that was the problem, limited testing is what they were up against(were those rules changed I wonder). Casting or CNCing a set of cases is not particularly hard, costly or time consuming. Would have been easy to place aluminium bosses/plates into the carbon lay up(as with F1 cars) to which it would have been easy to attach plates to change mounting points etc etc. Then when the ali version of the carbon frame came along the Ducati only went slower. Essentialy they were on their own without a small army of engineers like they had at Yamaha.

[thro]

I don't think any of that was the problem, limited testing is what they were up against(were those rules changed I wonder). Casting or CNCing a set of cases is not particularly hard, costly or time consuming. Would have been easy to place aluminium bosses/plates into the carbon lay up(as with F1 cars) to which it would have been easy to attach plates to change mounting points etc etc. Then when the ali version of the carbon frame came along the Ducati only went slower. Essentialy they were on their own without a small army of engineers like they had at Yamaha.

Well, changing the engine mounts on the engine block = engine change according to the rules.

Inserting bosses between the frame and the engine is another point of failure/flex/etc to take into account, and may incur too much of a change in engine position.

Yes limited testing is a problem, but the rules are the same for everyone. Ducati's development path simply made modifying the bike they designed a lot harder. Carbon has been tried before and failed, it was always a risk.

Sometimes big risks pay off (like the massive power output early on with the 2007 bike, maybe trading off too much reliability/fuel consumption), sometimes (as in ducati's case thus far with the carbon chassis) they don't.

[EEKNOWS]

May bikes use engine plates and CAD/CQM software can work all the flex out in a jiffy,but the carbon frame was changed and nothing changed. The real problem is Rossi just can't ride the Ducati. Casey Stoner said the carbon was a BIG improvement over the inconsistent CrMo trellis frames, so carbon did NOT 'fail' it has just been blamed.
Now Rossi has a bigger problem, he spins the rear and the front understeers , I don't know how that is possible, usualy opposite locking tightens exit of a corner.

[EEKNOWS]

Rossi not at Stoner's level: Burgess | Fox Sports

[thro]

May bikes use engine plates and CAD/CQM software can work all the flex out in a jiffy,but the carbon frame was changed and nothing changed. The real problem is Rossi just can't ride the Ducati. Casey Stoner said the carbon was a BIG improvement over the inconsistent CrMo trellis frames, so carbon did NOT 'fail' it has just been blamed.
Now Rossi has a bigger problem, he spins the rear and the front understeers , I don't know how that is possible, usualy opposite locking tightens exit of a corner.

Carbon was tried in GP before. it failed. Carbon was run by every ducati in the field between 09 and 11. Not a single rider has managed to win a championship, or even be consistent on a carbon chassis.

it has failed. again.

Stoner has talent yes (and balls). He still had a run of front end crashes with the carbon bike and had to ride around it.

A potentially fast bike that has no feel is not the weapon to win a world championship (stoner's 07 bike was trellis). To win a championship you need consistency and adjustability, and the carbon chassis didn't have it in the 90s when it was first tried, and doesn't have it now.

its a dead end, and ducati have (finally) come to realise this.

[SOLID]

Rossi at least admitting some fault here acknowledging that he cannot ride the Ducati at all let alone as well as team mates. Burgess cant have all the blame

Rossi: 'I can't ride this Ducati' - Motorcycle racing news: Moto GP - Visordown

UNDER the spotlight of Qatar Valentino Rossi struggled to a lowly 10th place at the MotoGP season opener.

Lining up on the grid as the last of the prototype machines, Rossi’s race did not see much improvement. After spending the early laps in 10th, the Italian was forced off the track by an aggressive pass by Hector Barbera and pushed back to 12th.

Off the pace and almost 34 seconds behind the leader, the seven time champion was promoted back to 10th after a retirement from Karel Abraham and a fading Ben Spies.

After the race a clearly frustrated Rossi told Italian broadcaster Mediaset: "I had big problems at the beginning of the race: when we are on new tyres I struggle under braking. On top of that, I lost four or five seconds after coming together with Barbera. I then managed to improve a bit and on the last lap I even managed to set my quickest lap on worn tyres. But it's useless, we struggle to be competitive.

"I can't ride this bike, I can't make the difference, I can't even keep up with Hayden's pace, who I used to go quick against in comparison. In theory, with new tyres I should go quicker. Nicky managed to do a good race with the other works Ducati, but he still ended up only sixth."

Rossi added that fighting for sixth position is not an ‘attractive objective’ for 2012, believing that the season may end up being tougher than last season. The Italian said: "Probably we are going worse than last year because we managed to be seventh back then... What can I say? I want to be frank. I can't ride this bike well, even in comparison with my fellow Ducati riders.

"This Ducati has problems: I gave indications over where to intervene, but we didn't solve our problems. Unfortunately I'm no engineer and can't do anything about it. At least the positive aspect is that I don't crash with this chassis. That's something at least."

Rossi appears to have lost faith in the Ducati Desmosedici GP12, as he concluded: "We ran out of hope last year. More than hope we need a better bike. But I wouldn't want to expose myself like I did last year, by thinking and hoping that the second chassis development would be an improvement.

"I tried to be a professional. When Barbera pushed me out I even considered returning to the pits, but then I stayed out in order to give our technicians some data to study so as to improve things."

[96]

And now he admits... He really should have just saved grace and walked away.

I've never been a Rossi fan, he is talented, but this could be ugly to watch.

[SOLID]

And now he admits... He really should have just saved grace and walked away.

Or wait for Kawasaki to come back, pilot their factory bike to victory and live happily ever after?

[96]

That, or ride a unicorn to Atlantis.

[SOLID]

Unicorns cant breathe under water