How long until Ducati...

[DTee]

...Abandon the carbon fibre chassis & swingarm?

Watched the race again today, and was thinking a bit more about what JB said in relation to the Ducati. All the teams run the same tyres, suspension, brakes etc, and the Ducati engine/electronics are good. He singled out the chassis as the only real difference between Ducati and the Japanese teams - insinuating if Rossi had a conventional chassis they'd be back at the front.

And since Rossi gets what Rossi wants, how long until Felippo Preziosi swallows his pride and we see a Ducati GP bike with a trellis frame again? Or even a twin spar alloy chassis?

I wonder if Rossi & JB have secretly tested a GP7 or GP8 chassis to see if it suits Rossi better than the carbon fibre? I wouldn't be suprised if there is an alternate GP12 chassis begin developed quietly in parallel to what's on there now. Ducati really can't afford to have to dud seasons in a row.

[Roger Explosion]

I wouldn't bet on it. Too much cash tied up in the road bikes using the same tech and they will want to maintain the link from a marketing point of view.

[R160]

yeah, as about or steel tube, no way would i expect a ally beam frame from ducati. its applicable what he says though, with a dunlop control tyre in moto 2, you would'nt be able to take full advantage of running something like a Vyrus, i remember when Alan cathcart raced his Bimota tesi, due to the much higher braking forces you could generate with the swingarm front, his had special dunlop tyres made with extra stiff sidewalls to take full effect of the late braking he could do. no chance of tweaking tyres to suit the chassis these days, maybe Rossi back to michelin next year ;-)

[out_in_front]

The alloy swingarms can flex more than the carbon fibre ones (although different weaves / angles can change that) and when the bike is leant over it acts as the spring in the vertical direction I.e not parrallel with the actual shock/spring which is at a significant angle to the vertical loads the bike may receive at that point. Honda already have different swingarms for different tracks because of this fact.

It would be interesting to see if it is that stiffness that is causing the issues for Ducati...

[speed3]

They've already agmitted it's too stiff. Which is why they tried newer forks, then older, then new ones again. And using thinner/less carbon around the headstem to add more flex. And thinner/less carbon around a heap of other parts. And... And....

They'll eventually have to concede it's a piece of shit and start again if they want to win anything.

[EEKNOWS]

The 90 deg V of the cylinder banks is the real problem, next problem is that Rossi/JB have gone up a blind development alley and now have past the point of no return.They will never turn the Ducati into a red M1.
Good news is OCC will be making the next frame for them that's fix it

[jules_1972]

The 90 deg V of the cylinder banks is the real problem

Really??

Why is that?

[pnork]

Yes, I too am interested to know what it is about the motor being of the 90 degree V4 type that is causing a problem.

Please go on...

[filbert]

i read it as being a problem because they can't make it like his last bike because of the L four, not that the L four is actually a problem but i might be reading too much into it.

[Desmo]

They won't abandon the frame and swing arm, it's the entire future of their SBK line.
There is also nothing wrong with the L4 motor, it's the chassis/rider that's the problem. The motor produces more than enough power, it's getting a competent rider to keep the front end stuck that's the issue.
Eeknows fuckall.

[EEKNOWS]

Really??

Why is that?

For a start no proper race bike engine runs a 90 deg V even the lowly Suzuki runs 65deg (many say that's to narrow) the Honda always has been 75deg.
A shorter engine allows a couple of things, first is allows a longer swingarm for better traction off corners and throws more weight onto the front under power. Next it allows the designer more latitude in positioning the engine(hence weight distribution), the narrow V makes it possible to rotate the engine forward or backwards without getting into packaging issues.That can also mean bigger air boxes or better packaging overall
The Ducati had to have the engine in one spot only it could not be rotated because of the length of it. Even with the GP11.1 frame(swing arm not pivoting in the cases), the engine could not be rotated forwards or backwards, because of packaging issues.
The whole aim it seems of MotoGP design is centralising the engine mass around the crankshaft, compared to the Honda the Ducati engine looks like a old air compressor.
The latest talk is of a aluminium frame for the Ducati at the Bruno test , a few parralel development projects all of which will just tinker with the edges.Witha 70 deg V and a twin spar ali frame the Ducati will just be a Honda clone.

[DTee]

I wouldn't bet on it. Too much cash tied up in the road bikes using the same tech and they will want to maintain the link from a marketing point of view.

They won't abandon the frame and swing arm, it's the entire future of their SBK line.

Whilst I understand the sentiment, do road bike buyers really care what is run by a couple of prototypes in the equivalent of 2 wheeled formula 1?

Honda's racing heritage is the V4 engine, but the i4 Fireblade is the biggest selling 1000cc bike. Ducati's heritage isn't Carbon Fibre - it's steel trellis frames, 90deg L twins and Desmodromic valves.

The point about the future of their SBK line is valid, but if you want to sell superbikes, prove your bike on the SBK circuit. If Checa wins races on a new carbon chassis Ducati superbike, then people are going to want it. And if it gets good reviews in magazines then people will buy it. If Rossi happens to be riding a prototype different chassis would you really care?

[Barfridge]

So people won't buy 1200cc twins if they're too different from 800cc v4 motors?

umm...

[EEKNOWS]

The Trouble With The Ducati Desmosedici: An Exhaustive Analysis | MotoMatters.com | Kropotkin Thinks

[R160]

100 to 1 every mag will rave about the new frameless 1200cc duke.
Testers will rave about its rigidity and it'll probably win bike of the year, mainly because the so called "fault" of the design is only evident if you are a absolute gun rider, riding on gp spec rubber, and your trying to find the absolute edge.
Everyone who will buy isnt a gp quality rider, they'll sell every one they can make. and it'll become another legend bike like the 916, 1090, RSV4, beemer S1000R etc.

Personally i cant wait until EICMA 2012 when Bimota make their version :-)

[jules_1972]

For a start no proper race bike engine runs a 90 deg V even the lowly Suzuki runs 65deg (many say that's to narrow) the Honda always has been 75deg.
A shorter engine allows a couple of things, first is allows a longer swingarm for better traction off corners and throws more weight onto the front under power. Next it allows the designer more latitude in positioning the engine(hence weight distribution), the narrow V makes it possible to rotate the engine forward or backwards without getting into packaging issues.That can also mean bigger air boxes or better packaging overall
The Ducati had to have the engine in one spot only it could not be rotated because of the length of it. Even with the GP11.1 frame(swing arm not pivoting in the cases), the engine could not be rotated forwards or backwards, because of packaging issues.
The whole aim it seems of MotoGP design is centralising the engine mass around the crankshaft, compared to the Honda the Ducati engine looks like a old air compressor.
The latest talk is of a aluminium frame for the Ducati at the Bruno test , a few parralel development projects all of which will just tinker with the edges.Witha 70 deg V and a twin spar ali frame the Ducati will just be a Honda clone.

Quick call Ducati, they been wrong for so long......

[Buck]

Rolf
Have you got the number Jules?

[EEKNOWS]

They cannot make it work for Rossi with the spec bridgestone tyres, completed race times are much slower than last year. When the tyres were tailored to them they had far better results, from 10 wins in 07 down to 3 in 2010, they won't even win a GP this year barring a minor miracle. If Rossi never wins on the Ducati who will get the blame? Rossi or the Ducati?
The road bike performance is irrelevant, they DO NOT have to run the spec tyre, a MotoGP bike must be designed around the tyre, Bridgestone make a 1 size fits all, Ducati have not evolved or adapted their design.
The desmo heads seem to make that engine very tall as well.

[thro]

carbon chassis was tried in bikes many years ago, and was found to be too stiff then.

stoner couldn't win the championship on it since they went to the carbon air box either (07 bike was different). the carbon airbox/chassis is shit (entire ducati mounted field can't be wrong), the sooner they admit they're wrong and try something else (trellis perhaps?) the better.

[ducmon]

Stoner still managed to win on it though, did he not?