What defines a CRT bike?

[Commander Keen]

Now I thought all of this was black and white for a while. If a factory enters a bike it must be a prototype, if a sattelite leam enters a bike that is not leased from a factory, it is a CRT bike. In the end the prototypes will always have the electronics advantage, but the CRT teams ger 3l of extra fuel (Higher engine tune) and 12 engines (Up from 6).

Now Ducati are claiming Aprilia are blurring the lines between CRT and prototype by "Heavily assisting" Aspar with their RSV4-based unit.

Ducati uncomfortable with Aprilia CRT project - | Motorcycle Sport | MotoGP News | MotoGP Results | MCN

The Aspar bike has an FTR chassis (Not confirmed) and runs a WSBK spec RSV4 engine, is factory input from Aprilia a good thing for CRT or taking the piss?



Personally I think it's the same old Ducati doing their "I'm taking my bat and ball and going home" trick like they did in WSBK several times. But are they upset that a CRT team MAY be showing signs of being competitive with some prototypes? Will the CRT teams turn MotoGP into a WSBK parody? What happens when a CRT bike beats a factory bike for the first time?

What are your thoughts?

[BlackFZR]

All the other CRT bikes are running WSBK Spec+ engines, Its just that for Kawasaki & Honda the WSBK Spec engines are built by independant companies. BMW & Aprillia WSBK engines are pretty much only built or have components supplied by the factories.

Ducati are currently raising concerns based on an assumption that the Aspar team are using a standard Aprillia frame, which they can't be, as the CRT bikes require a prototype chassis. Whether that prototype chassis comes from Aprillia, FTR, Suter, Bimota, wherever. Aprillia won't be able to introduce it for use into the WSBK field, because for WSBK they have to use a "standard" road bike frame, with the allowance for some modifications....

This doesn't mean that Aprillia couldn't build the prototype frame for CRT, and then carry the design over to a new Aprillia frame for 2013 (which means they couldn't use that frame for CRT in 2013), or even use the data to modify their "standard" WSBK frames within the WSBK rules to more closely resemble the flex/stiffness characteristics of the CRT frames.

Eventually MotoGP technology & data is looked at being used on mass produced road bikes. Aprillia may just be using the opportunity to reduce the turnaround when it comes to frame technology.

[Rick76]

motogp.com · Dorna CEO announces big changes in MotoGP for 2013

CEO of Dorna Sports S.L, Carmelo Ezpeleta, was present at Wrooom 2012 this week in Madonna de Campiglio where he spoke about future MotoGP™ class regulations.
The MotoGP grid has an enrollment of 21 bikes for 2012, including twelve factory bikes and nine members of the new CRT category. Regarding this mix, Ezpelata stated: "We must immediately do two things: The first is to keep the grid is as compact as possible. This is not to say that there will be no differences, but to make sure that the CRT bikes are as close as possible to the factory bikes. Second, that factory bikes don’t technologically advance to performance levels that could be dangerous, with costs that can’t be assumed. For the problem is not just how to reduce costs, it’s that if someone invests a significant amount, wins the Championship and then leaves, it leaves you with nothing."
In this regard, Ezpeleta says that communication is ongoing with manufacturers. "We have three manufacturers - Ducati, Yamaha and Honda. I'm talking with them and I have ideas for making the championship more competitive. The basics of motorsport are the combination of entertainment and technology. In times of crisis, if we cut back on something, it must be in technology, not the entertainment, which both television and circuits pay for. Again, I'm talking to the manufacturers and I think we will come to a conclusion in May as to how the championship will look from 2013."
The CEO of Dorna is positive he can convince the manufacturers of the advantages these changes will bring: "Manufacturers are aware of the situation, not least because the crisis is affecting them too," he said. "The problem is that, for them, the priority has always been the technological development. And this development has made the cost of the bikes too high, which until now have been offered on lease. On the other hand, this technology that has made the motorcycles running up front lightning-fast has also created an issue with competition, because they are so superior."
"I think we will be able to resolve these issues by consensus," he continued. "If not, we have ideas, such as the introduction of a spec ECU or a rev limit, which could be launched as early as 2013, a year in which the Championship will be completely different compared to 2012."
"The establishment of the single unit, according to the manufacturers, would be the biggest limiter to continued technological development. We are looking at what the best way of limiting the performance—and thereby costs—will be, to ensure that a satellite team will be able to obtain bikes at a maximum of one million Euros per season, whether through selling, through a long term leasing commitment, or through CRTs, although this cost seems excessive to me for a CRT."

[g0zer]

are they upset that a CRT team MAY be showing signs of being competitive with some prototypes? Will the CRT teams turn MotoGP into a WSBK parody? What happens when a CRT bike beats a factory bike for the first time?

What are your thoughts?

the 800cc class raised everyones development costs so many teams have been priced out of the competition they have to create a whole new poor mans gp class that is allowed to race on the same track at the same time.. i think its lame, crt bikes must lose and the rule book will be written on the fly to make sure that happens.

also its motogp not the manufacturers that have most to lose, manufacturers can race in wsbk without gp but gp cannot race without manufacturers. they should have done more to keep suzuki and kwaka. the current gp decision makers have managed to ruin the premier class crt is them trying to hide it. 12 bike grid... what is that? 4 dukes 2 yamahas vs 6 hondas? what i want to see as a fan is 6 hondas in 1 2 3 4 5 and 6 for the entire year no other bikes on the grid, that would be awse

[Para045]

"If not, we have ideas, such as the introduction of a spec ECU or a rev limit, which could be launched as early as 2013, a year in which the Championship will be completely different compared to 2012."

Would be interested to see how that would work? a single spec ECU isn't going to work on every bike the same as a set rev limit wont What would the limit be set at? the rev range for a V4 is going to be different to that for an I4

[96]

Typical Ducati winge.

"it's not in the spirit of the rules"

"can we have 1200cc's instead"

Yeah... Cause fair is fair.

The rules may have been for satelite teams to buy and tune an engine, and buy a frame. Now it's even easier, buy a tuned engine (in house by aprilia, who better to tune an engine than it's own manufacturer), bolt it in a frame, and put in your entry.

One rule that seams to have been looked past is the body work. That is one part that some fans will look at and think 'that's just an aprilia'... I beielve the body work should have to be prototype too, as those aprilia crt's look mighty close to the road bike.

Would love to see rossi and the ducatis having to chase these bikes around.


Another point.
Why do we need manufacturers in GP?
I don't care who builds the bike. If it's fast, and well presented, I will like it.
Surely a grid of Ftr/suter/moriwaki/muz/etc with less restrictive rules would be just as enjoyable?
Hell, kinda like moto2, but with a free for all on engines.

[timmy]

Why do we need manufacturers in GP?
I don't care who builds the bike. If it's fast, and well presented, I will like it.
Surely a grid of Ftr/suter/moriwaki/muz/etc with less restrictive rules would be just as enjoyable?
Hell, kinda like moto2, but with a free for all on engines.

100% agree with this!

[bomoto]

Yep, bring back the old days where any frame manufacturer could build a bike with the engine of there choice in there own frame and compete. Ducati are the only ones crying because they don't build a street 4 cylinder, with a bit of luck the reproduce the desmosedici, this time at a reasonable price please, mr ducati!!!

[timmy]

Ducati are the only ones crying because they don't build a street 4 cylinder, with a bit of luck the reproduce the desmosedici, this time at a reasonable price please, mr ducati!!!

That would be unreal obviously!

BUT,

I can't see why Ducati couldn't build a race motor based (exotic materials, higher revs, etc) on their 1199 Panigale. It isn't like the 1199 motor is lacking for power (195hp). And go back to a trellis designed frame (maybe titanium (ala NCR) to drop weight?) which they were/are good at.

Just if they aren't winning with it they'll push for a capacity increase allowance...

My personal opinion is they, Ducati, have sunk so much money into the Valentino Rossi and GP11/11.1/12 fuck up that a change in the rules to allow only CRT based machinery, would put the company at risk. All the money wasted invested will have been for nothing.

It just screams "if I don't get my way I'm taking my bat and ball and going home!"

[bomoto]

The rules state 4 cylinder, 81mm bore, 1000cc, so Ducati can't run the twin.

On a side note, I hope Honda bring out a new vfr/rvf 1000 so they can use the crankcases for this class!!!

[Desmo]

runs a WSBK spec RSV4 engine

How is this in the spirit of prototype racing?

[timmy]

The rules state 4 cylinder, 81mm bore, 1000cc, so Ducati can't run the twin.

On a side note, I hope Honda bring out a new vfr/rvf 1000 so they can use the crankcases for this class!!!

Current rules state that, yes. But with Dorna being more interested in the show case - they'd want the factory Ducati team on the grid. They'd modify the ruling to allow it somehow, with some kind of parity based structure between the twin and the 4 cyl machines. Assuming Ducati still want/are able to, hang around>

Re: the VFR donk - there's been rumours about a new Honda V4 superbike for years! A quick google search shows articles speculating it as far back as 2007. As much as I have no doubt Honda do have a V4 superbike hiding in the books somewhere. I just cannot see them releasing one. Especially in this economic climate, and especially when the money and growing market is in countries like India, with a small capacity engine based market.

runs a WSBK spec RSV4 engine

How is this in the spirit of prototype racing?

How is it not? The frame the motor is being housed in is a prototype design.

Teams want to be competitive from the opening race. So what is the point in going out and spending exuberant amounts of money up front, trying to reinvent the wheel, when a proven method of getting power from these engines already exists from what's been done in WSBK? If you were fielding an entry isn't this what you would do?

Although I am certain that once things stabilize in the championship we will see some new ideas and fresh thinking with getting more power. Look at moto2 for an example. They are stuck using one engine and you can already see some creativity coming out with some teams being able to get a bit more grunt. How about a 20,000rpm revving Suzuki GSXR1000 motor with a spastic power curve? That sounds pretty prototype to me. They've got to start somewhere.

The RSV4 motor isn't the only WSBK based engine in the CRT world either. Gresini will be using Ten Kate prepped CBR1000 engines (source);

“Engine and electronics will be based on the late 2011 WSBK specifications and during the season developed to suit the CRT bike,"

.

Ten Kate are already stating the initial package will be developed throughout the season to suit the CRT bike. Grippier tires = less electronic intervention = more power hitting the tarmac? /speculation

End of the day - people all over bitched and moaned about the introduction of Moto2. Now it's probably the most exciting racing we've seen on a MotoGP race weekend in years. CRT will go the same way.

[bomoto]

How is this in the spirit of prototype racing?

Yeah, what Timmy said, Aprilia aren't the only team out there grabbing engines off established SBK teams!! I know the bike they are currently testing draws much resemblance to the street bike/world superbike but come race time the bike will have a very different frame/swingarm and fairings.

[Desmo]

How is it not? The frame the motor is being housed in is a prototype design.

Teams want to be competitive from the opening race. So what is the point in going out and spending exuberant amounts of money up front, trying to reinvent the wheel, when a proven method of getting power from these engines already exists from what's been done in WSBK? If you were fielding an entry isn't this what you would do?

Because by it's very definition this is prototyping.
Grabbing a proven engine from a road bike is not.

[bomoto]

Yeah, but it's not so different from the motogp of old???