Shadowing

[Incognito]

Has anyone looked into what is expected (legally) for someone to shadow, beyond the licence requirements?

[Barfridge]

Are you talking duty of care, or legal liability or something?

[Incognito]

Duty of care
How many learners can you take out at once?
How close to the learner do you have to be?

[Barfridge]

# of learners is a grey area, nobody has a definite answer. I know riding schools have done ride days with 1 instructor for every 4 learners, but is that because they're instructors?

And you need to be within sight of the learner, otherwise they should pull over and wait for you.

[Ben S]

Yeah I recently started a similar post HERE

[Incognito]

The reason I ask is that I have been requested to shadow a rider on Sunday's ride. I want to know what I have to do as a shadow (I have done it one on one both here and in UK) in a group ride.
So, if I have to be in view of the L plater, if I am in a group, I need to be basically the next in the line to them?
If I see the L plater doing something which I think is dangerous, how do I go about pulling him off to one side, if we are being followed by a pack of riders?

[Stoneville]

Well technically yes, but in a group ride doesn't always happen or isn't always practical.

Sunday's ride is split into two or three groups, so you'll be in the last group to ride out in the split sections.

[Incognito]

I am interested if there are any written rules for the learner or the shadow? Most of us shadows are doing it to give someone a hand, if it is stated that you must do something, then surely its immaterial of whether you are in a group or alone, otherwise you are actually doing a dis-service?

[Stoneville]

Never seen anything anywhere, someone might be able to dig out an obscure Road Rule somewhere

HIHO where are you????? we peeped you last night

[Incognito]

I contacted the local licensing department, and they said:

It is illegal not to have 1 shadow for each L plater, the shadow must either be on the bike, in a side car or directly behind the L plater. A shadow has the same responsibility as a teacher does, they must hold a motorcycle licence for a min of 4yrs equal to or over the capacity of the L plater.
At present there is no law against L plate motor cyclist being out at night but they are in the processes of changing that.

I am not a legal type, but I have had a LOT of experience with HSE/ OHS and people like that. I am concerned that by not following guidelines we are accidentally endangering the L plater, the shadow, those following the L plater, not to mention licence revoking, etc, etc.
If there is no chance of any of the afore mentioned, then cool, but if what the licencing guy said is right, then we need to re-think how we shadow.

[akeracat]

^^^^^
must be nice to be colourful but cannot read when using the blue screen

kthnxs

[Incognito]

Bumpety bump

[thro]

Oh yay, they're changing it so learners can't ride in the dark?


I'm sure that will do wonderful things for their ability to clock up hours after work when there's actually people available to help them out...

Not to mention getting no prior riding experience in the dark before being cut loose.

akeracat: doesn't work with the red theme either, but if you select the text in the post you can read it


edit:
AS to obligations: I believe it would be up to the learner in question to ensure that they fulfil the obligations of their learners permit. If they don't I'm pretty sure you'd be legally in the clear - whilst they'd be pinged for contravening the terms of their permit, if that's what you're concerned about.

[Incognito]

Obviously, the licence and the condition of the learners bike is up to the learner, that isn't what is my concern.
I don't see any hard and fast rules or guidelines on the shadow's role. The licencing guy termed it as supervising the rider..
Obviously as there have been a number of threads asking these questions, it isn't something which has been dealt with or answered fully...
If the licencing guy is correct, and it is one shadow per rider and you basically have to be next to the learner you are shadowing, then at least there is clarity of the role...

[thro]

Ahh ok, i just read into this a bit:

I am not a legal type, but I have had a LOT of experience with HSE/ OHS and people like that. I am concerned that by not following guidelines we are accidentally endangering the L plater, the shadow, those following the L plater, not to mention licence revoking, etc, etc.

Yes, by the letter of the law, the group rides are probably technically illegal in some aspects. However as far as supervision goes, one could certainly argue that there's plenty of supervision.

If you're just out with a learner I think it would be up to the cop's discretion as to whether you were providing adequate supervision - because as you say, I don't think there *are* any hard rules for it (the guy from licensing should know otherwise) - you need to be able to adapt to traffic conditions and if there were specific rules you'd probably end up breaking them when some idiot in a cage decides he wants the space between you and your learner anyway.

They could make a bunch of rules up like "must maintain no more than 10m seperation", etc but I doubt it would be feasible to obey or enforce.

2c...

[Ryven]

I'd think, by all rights, you'd either have to have a line formation, learner, shadow, learner, shadow. Or you could lane share, but I can't really see that as being safe for either party in an emergency.

10m may not even be the best idea, depending on speed. Give enough room that, if they manage to fall, you're not in a position where it's going to be a pile up, but can assist. I don't see why the 2 second rule wouldn't be adequate for that.

I'll have a chat with some of the examiners today and see what they know.

Also, the no night driving thing is a load of crap - Which they haven't even brought up with us. If anything, they should be encouraging people going out at night while they still have someone watching their back.

[Incognito]

It would seem stupid to limit riders to only daylight, because its better learning to ride in all conditions on a small bike than to do it on a big one.

[Tenchi]

Oh yay, they're changing it so learners can't ride in the dark?

I'm sure that will do wonderful things for their ability to clock up hours after work when there's actually people available to help them out...

Agreed on that one. Almost all of my shadowing was done at night time. I think one was done just before sunset, but that's it.

[potato]

as a rule of thumb, i will take 2 from either class,right or wrong, i just hate to see learners miss out on valuable experience.

if its a group ride i cant see the point in sitting on your learner, too me, if they are in a group situation they have to learn how to ride with fellow bikers and fend for themselves in that situation.
at the very least they can watch and learn from an array of people with varing levels of experience.

[Ryven]

as a rule of thumb, i will take 2 from either class,right or wrong, i just hate to see learners miss out on valuable experience.

I checked up on it and, by all rights, as long as you can watch over them all, you can have as many learners as you like. Let's not go crazy and solo-supervise an entire learners group. But taking two out isn't an issue at all, as long as you're able to assist them in emergencies, and keep an eye on them.