new TV- 1080p vs 1080i vs 720

[Lord Farquaad]

Hey all, thinking of getting an XBOX360, and seeing as I have a crap TV atm, I thought I might buy a HD LCD

What sorta difference am i likely to see between 1080i and 1080p and 720 (i or p?)

Seems like there isnt that much point in going 1080p for the massive price difference? Thinking 1080i might be the go?

[kwakas]

i got a 720 and a 1080i and seriously the difference if SFA... if you were using a blu-ray player or something it would most likely be more noticable but for tv and stuff who cares

[Lord Farquaad]

mostly i care about the difference when playing games

[thro]

Personally....

I wouldn't *really* be too bothered at the moment.

Most "hd" channels broadcast low def content anyway. I've got a 720p lcd unit and it's "good enough".

Maybe save the money and get plasma cheap instead and upgrade when there's actually decent 1080 hd content available?


edit:
gaming: don't have a 360 so can't really comment on that one. would suggest that so long as the game is "fast" enough you probably won't notice really.

[Lord Farquaad]

You think plasma? I thought LCD was better for gaming?

[thro]

based purely on price.

I know you can get a fuckload more plasma real estate for teh dollar than you can with LCD.

I wouldn't be too concerned with the screen life, as chances are you'll need to throw it out in a few years when you want 60" instead of 42 or whatever anyway...


just do the price comparison (and if possible, test in the shop if they'll plug in a 360 or whatever) is all i'm saying...

[Lord Farquaad]

ok. Im looking at about 40", is plasma much cheaper at that size?

[Desmo]

42" 720 Plasma used for TV, DivX, DVD, some HD, games.
It's really good, love it. Unless you are a very anal A/Vphile, it makes SFA difference.
Feel free to bring your Xbox around and try it out, I'll bring the 6 pack.

[Johnno]

40 inch samsung lcd in 1080i is about $1600 now and has a inbuilt HD tuner.
The 1080i does 30 frames a sec and the 1080p does 60 frames a sec and blueray would be the only way to really see the differance.

I have blueray on my 1080i and it is still very impressive so for the huge price differance I'd get 1080i lcd.

[thro]

ok. Im looking at about 40", is plasma much cheaper at that size?

When i was shopping (some time ago), i could get 42" plasma for the price of 32" lcd.

Went LCD at the time because i was happy with LCD monitors, etc and plasma was "the unknown".

If i was shopping again i'd probably get plasma.

[rc_sam]

Sony bravia x series 1080p, 100hz refresh rate. FTW.
If you buy before end of july u get a free ps3..

[Lord Farquaad]

42" one of these LG Plasma Integrated HD TVã…£50PG60UD - LG Australia official site
for 1350 at harvey norman. Seems pretty good to me

[thro]

^^ only 720p, but yeah... see what i mean about the price...

i'd go check it out see what you think, if you ask nicely perhaps they'd let you plug an xbox 360 into that and a 1080p screen and you can see whether the cost difference is worth it.

[merctom]

if the only HD stuff your going to do on it is HD tv and xbox theres no point in getting a 1080p screen as you wont be looking at anything in 1080 anyway it will all be 720p

List of Xbox 360 1080p games Make You Go Hmm

[Spock]

1080p>720p>1080i>576p>576i

SDTV = 576i
DVD = 576i
Progressive scan DVD = 576p
HDTV = 576p, 1080i or 720p (depending on channel and programme)
Blueray = 1080p

Hope this helps.

[Lord Farquaad]

fuckit, 720 is enough for me i think
Will a 720 picture run a 1080i image?

[Spock]

fuckit, 720 is enough for me i think
Will a 720 picture run a 1080i image?

Your TV or topbox will always upscale or downscale an image to suit its native resolution. I think all TVs and associated hardware sold in Australia will handle all video up to and including their maximum rated resolution.

[snowman95]

For screen sizes 50-50inch+ = plasma
Anything under go LCD

1080p or 720p would be the go

Also your viewing range needs to be considered, getting a massive telly for a tiny lounge not so good

Ripped blatently from the Something Awful AV subforum

1. An intro to HDTV - 720p, 1080i, and other basics
Utnayan posted:

Traditionally, TV has been broadcast at 480i (Called SDTV - Chemmy). This means 480 interlaced. The frame of the picture is scanned every other line down, and then once again every other line up, which then creates the frame for that specific sequence. There is also EDTV. Which stands for enhanced definition television. More or less this is 480p, or 480 progressive, which means the entire frame for that particular shot is scanned in one pass, which creates a clearer picture with virtually no flicker. More or less if you see a set advertised as an EDTV, about the most performance you will get out of it is a set that will be able to support an incoming signal from a progressive scan DVD player, or a game console which is able to send a 480p signal. Enter HDTV, which has a couple different formats. 720p, and 1080i respectively. Right now these are the two formats battling for supremacy in HDTV land. 1080i is the standard used for most stations now, with ABC and ESPN (possibly a couple others) still hanging on to 720p.

When dealing with HDTV sets, they each have their own native display format. This means the signal which it can support as displaying without alteration of that signal via downconverting or upconverting (which I will touch on in a minute) This native display will either be 1080i or 720p. Most, if not all, LCD fixed displays will support 720p natively. Most RPTV's, CRT's - will support 1080i natively.

Here comes the tricky part. A lot of the less expensive sets out there, and even some of the others, will only accept either a 720p signal, or 1080i signal. If it sees a signal come in that it doesn't natively support, the set will downconvert the signal to 480p automatically so it can display the image. For example, you have a 51" Model WS500/510 that displays 1080i as it's native resolution. The program you are trying to view, or the game you are trying to play, is transmitting at 720p. This particular set will see the 720p signal, and downconvert this to 480p. Making this particular set, when receiving anything but 1080i native signals, essentially nothing more than a glorified EDTV.

There are now more and more sets coming out that will finally upconvert. For instance I just bought a 34" Sony CRT tube based HDTV set. If this set sees a 720p signal coming, it will automatically upconvert the signal to 1080i so I still receive the signal in HD. The basis for all this is to make sure that you are purchasing a set which will upconvert 720p to 1080i if you are going with a set that natively supports 1080i, and not downconvert to 480p. This is very important, and should be reflected in your purchase. Especially when games on the Xbox 360 (and other consoles) will be coming in both formats.

So the next big question is determining the right set for you. This all depends on the subjective layout of your home theater, lighting, budget, gaming area, and personal preference. I'll attempt to cover each of the technologies, their plusses and minuses. Most of these will be heavily related to gaming, but will also cover home theater.

HDTV resolutions:

code:

Name Resolution Refresh Mode ---- ---------- ------------ 480i [SDTV] 640x480 Interlaced 480p [EDTV] 640x480 Progressive 720p [HDTV] 1280x720 Progressive 1080i [HDTV] 1920x1080 Interlaced 1080p [HDTV] 1920x1080 Progressive

Progressive vs. Interlaced
Your television draws lines on the screen 60 times a second. If your TV's resolution was 8x6, it would look like this:

code:

X X X X X X X X O O O O O O O O X X X X X X X X O O O O O O O O X X X X X X X X O O O O O O O O

An interlaced TV means that the first 1/60th of a second, the TV draws the odd numbered lines, like this:
code:

X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X

The second 1/60th of a second it draws the even numbered lines, like this:
code:

O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O

A progressive resolution would refresh the entire picture once every 1/60th of a second. Because of this, some people claim that progressive resolutions are smoother than interlaced resolution.

1080i and 720p display roughly the same amount of video information in the same time frame.

2. Useful terms
Utnayan posted:

Burn in: Static images that if left on over time, will leave a permanent fixed image on your screen.

Convergence: Manually targeting a series of points over the screen as a whole to properly align the guns that project a picture on a TV set.

Upconvert: Takes an incoming signal and adjusts it so it can still display it in HDTV format.

Downconvert: Takes an incoming signal and downgrades it to be viewable by the set. Usually this means it will convert an image out of HDTV and force it into EDTV because it cannot accept a native 720p signal. But recently it also means if it receives a 1080i signal, it can downconvert it to 720p so the TV can still take advantage of the HD source.

3. HDTV Technology:
Utnayan posted:

CRT - Traditional tube based TV sets:

Advantages: These sets are terrific for gaming. They require no manual convergence and are pretty much ready to go out of the box (with a few tweaks I will get to later). The picture quality is second to none (from my subjective opinion). Tube based sets are still subjected to burn in, but not nearly a scale as to which Plasma's and RPTV's are. Most sets will upconvert 720p to 1080i, with most CRT's natively supporting 1080i. Contrast ratio and brightness are fabulous, and you can easily adjust the picture depending on the light source without worrying about torching the tubes over an extended period of time. You do not have to worry about dead pixels, or running out of plasma.

Disadvantages: Cost is higher than some other sets. Weight and size also plays a key issue. Some are deeper than normal. For instance, my Sony 34" HDTV clocks in at around 200 pounds. It doesn't seem like much, but with it's bulk makes it almost impossible to try and get into different positions without help of at least two people that lift weights regularly. There is still minor screen burn issues, but nothing to really worry about unless you leave the same static image on for 45 days straight. Expect though to pay about the same price for a 34" CRT HDTV depending on the brand) as you would for a 46-51" RPTV.

Utnayan posted:

LCD TV's:

Advantages: Lightweight, usually a more refined picture. Depending on versatility can usually be used with a PC or set top media center. Screen burn is non existant so static images over time will not hurt the set. You do not have to run a manual convergence. Of course these sets are much smaller in scope, and very easy to carry around if you want to move your set up a lot.

Disadvantages: Most companies require a lot of dead pixels before they will take them back under warranty. Blacks are more grey-ish and are not deep or rich true blacks. Lamp replacement is usually not convered under warranty and will sometimes hit in the $300 dollar price range within 2-4 years. Depending on the set, you can really get screwed if you do not watch for low reaction times. Preferably a 16 Ms reaction time would be good enough for most gamers, but if you are an enthusiast, you may want even lower. Price is still pretty high and when comparing what can happen to an LCD set with the cost, and what is and not covered, you really have to weigh your options. Also watch for contrast ratios and CD/M brightness quality. A lot of sets on the market now and using lower tier OEM LCD screens to hit certain price points. For the most part, cheaper isn't better.

Utnayan posted:

CRT RPTV's

Advantages: Deep rich blacks that almost come close to the level of a CRT based tube TV. Very good color quality. Do not have to worry about dead pixels or plasma charge. High amount of screen display for a relatively lower cost. For instance, my Sony 34" HDTV was the same price as the Sony 51" WS520 rear projection set. Decent vertical viewability. Most parts are readily available, and if you can get a hold of a service manual, you could probably teach yourself how to repair the set. Most of these sets are very cost effective.

Disadvantages: Screen burn is more rampant than traditional tube based sets. Convergence is a must, and you will learn whether you want to or not how to converge these sets on your own. Service level convergence (where you enter the service menu of a set via a set of codes on your remote) is about 60 times better than any auto convergence or manual convergence through a regular menu system. If you move your set, be prepared to reconverge. Also, these things are massive. So if you have limited depth space, you may want to think twice. Analog television doesn't look good either. Very grainy. Games look decent as long as the set is converged. One of the major downfalls is that these sets traditionally accept 1080i native resolution only. And about 95% of them downconvert to 480p. So if you have a game which displays 720p, you are out of luck. Ask your HDTV provider if the set top they will lease you will upconvert 720 to 1080i at the source. Usually these set tops are good at doing this, albeit some loss of quality. These sets have amazing potential, but usually an ISF calibrator is needed to really see the true potential of the RPTV. These guys come to your house and spend upwards of 8-10 hours with various equipment to bring you the best picture possible. They also charge about $500.00. If you get a Best Buy rep selling you a warranty saying it includes a free ISF calibration per year, kick him or her in the genital region, head butt them in the face, and walk out of the store.

Flashdance posted:

LCD RPTVs:

Advantages: Lightweight and shallow, similar to a DLP set; not as thin as a "true" LCD. Typically uses 3 small LCD panels (red/green/blue) to create an image, which is then projected onto the larger screen. Because the image is projected, an LCD RPTV is much cheaper than a true LCD of the same size. An LCD RPTV still offers all of the benefits of LCD technology: the picture is usually more refined, screen burn is non-existant, and because no CRT is involved, there is no need for convergence. The viewing angle is also typically excellent and the picture very bright.

Disadvantages: Same as those of true LCDs. The big ones are dead pixel problems, spotty black quality, and, because of the projection aspect, the need for periodic lamp replacement. LCD reaction time is still an issue with some sets. Some users will notice a "screen door" effect, where a very slight spacing between pixels occurs if you look closely. Price is higher than a standard RPTV, but the difference is not nearly as high as it was; expect to find an LCD RPTV priced slightly less than a comparably-sized DLP.

Utnayan posted:

DLP:

Advantages: These sets are above RPTV's in quality without the hassle of convergence. There is no possibility for screen burn. They are relatively light and thin, and put out an amazing picture. Colors are fantastic, although sometimes blacks have a bit of a problem although I have never noticed it myself personally. They are not as bulky as a traditional CRT based set or RPTV, and resemble more of an LCD case look. There can be a bit of a rainbow effect depending on the set you purchase. There are some manufacturers now that are combating the rainbow effect with a new feature.

Disadvantages: Blacks sometimes have what is called a "Rainbow" effect. Meaning sometimes you can see various colors in a black because of the way DLP works depending on the reflections. Lamp replacement usually every 2-3 years at a cost of around $300.00 or so. As of this point they are pretty expensive over RPTV based sets. One of the biggest limiting factors at the moment is the way games are handled. Now, some sets are immune to this, and others are having some problems. There is sufficient lag being reported from reaction time with the controller, to the set reacting to the image and displaying said image. Some samsung's are being hit hard with this, and they have yet to react to the problem. Some sets even in the same model line up are completely immune and not showing any signs. Most, if not all, of these sets natively support 720p and upconvert to 1080i. Which can be a blessing or not depending on how it goes in the way of HDTV.

Utnayan posted:

Plasma:

Advantages: Great picture display, very nice colors. Better black levels than LCD but still fail a bit in comparison next to a direct view CRT set. These are also very thin and easy to hang on a wall or attach to a mounting rack. Prices have dropped and continue to drop for Plasmas with introduction of other technologies.

Disadvantages: Screen burn susceptibility more so then RPTV's especially in initial setup. Black levels are better than LCD but still pale a bit in comparison to a direct view CRT.

Note: The EDTV trap of Plasmas has all but vanished for the most part. Make sure if you purchase a Plasma you are checking the life of the display overall, and double check to make sure the resolutions aren't off the wall numbers.

Chemmy posted:

LCoS:

"Liquid crystal on silicon (LCOS or LCoS) is a "micro-projection" or "micro-display" technology typically applied in projection televisions. It is a reflective technology similar to DLP projectors; however, it uses liquid crystals instead of individual mirrors. This is contrary to LCD projectors which use a transmissive approach. In LCoS, liquid crystals are applied directly to the surface of a silicon chip coated with an aluminized layer which is highly reflective. (There might also be a "polyimide alignment layer".) As the liquid crystals open and close, the light is either reflected from the mirror below, or blocked. This modulates the light and creates the image.

LCOS technology requires less optical-quality glass than do liquid crystal display and plasma display technologies, which makes it less expensive to implement in such devices as televisions." - Wikipedia

Advantages: The Sony SXRD is the only LCoS TV I can think of, and it's a 1080p monster. The Jizzer said that JVC's D-ILA line of TVs are also LCoS, but apparently JVC isn't known for their build quality.

Disadvantages: The Sony SXRD is expensive. As time goes on, the price of LCoS will drop.

5. Purchasing an HDTV
Utnayan posted:

watch out for sales tricks. When you go into a best buy or circuit city, you'll know more about these sets then they could ever hope to know. Things to look out for:

1> Make sure the set upconverts 720p to 1080i if the set you purchase natively supports 1080i. Although this is becoming less of a problem being that most set top boxes and consoles will do the upconverting for you, there still may be times when the TV set in question can do it better, or you may have an older set top that doesn't do this for you.

2> Make sure the set has an HDMI input.

3> Make sure you have enough component inputs on the set, or purchase a receiver that you can use as a switch.

4> Warranty plans do not cover ISF calibration.

5> Do not fall for the EDTV trap. Even though this is declining, some sets appear to be very good deals only to find when you get them home they only accept a 480p signal and are not truly high definition.

Input, Cables, and Calibration
Utnayan posted:

1> Composite/RCA: This is the worst possible connection you can use. If your set supports S-video, please use it. Composite basically ties every signal into one cable and throws it at the set.

2> S-video: A huge upgrade from Composite. Basically the color seperation is done within the same cable, but has it's own dedicated line. Hence it looks like a PS/2 mouse adapter plug. Every small wire that connects to the S-video female port (Hot) carries it's own signal for richer color seperation and less signal degradation.

3> Component: If you have a set that has component but does not support progressive scan, the improvement is minimal. You may as well stay with S-video. If you have a set that supports progressive scan however, switch to Component and start using 480p. The difference is amazing. Remember, you cannot display a 480p picture using S-video or composite. Only Component and up.

4> DVI: A pure sigital connection that was designed to for copyright protected HD data over cable, sat, etc. It isn't going to be used much anymore unless you are a PC user.

5> HDMI - A new digital connection that can carry the audio and the video in the same connection. Purely digital - and will most likely take hold in the coming years. You will want your set to have HDMI, if anything because it will free up component inputs.

6> Just because a set has component input, doesn't mean that the set supports 480p. If you are looking for a lower end set, some can be deceiving. Make sure you verify if a set can support 480 progressive.

Also a quick word on DVD players. There is a new product out there with regard to DVD players that will upconvert a DVD to 1080i or 720p at the source. This will usually require an HDMI connection.

A lot of people are buying into these thinking they will be able to pop in their DVD's and instantly get HD resolution. This couldn't be further from the truth. In actuality, a 480i source (DVD) being upconverted to 720p or 1080i at the DVD player itself and then passed through another cable looks no different in blind tests than a good 480p DVD player. For example, my Kardon Progressive scan player for $199.99 looks better than a Samsung, Sony, Toshiba, LG - upconverting DVD player in 1080i. And the thing with this is, most of these players are terrible when used through their component outputs. Depending on where you go, HDMI cables can cost a fortune. Even online. Be careful.

Monster Cables: Whether or not this is the popular opinion, I am going to state mine. These are a complete 100% rip off. Over my years in setting up home theaters for friends and doing it for myself, a decent shielded cable from radio shack for $19.99 perform just as good as a $150.00 monster cable which will radiate nitrous oxide from it's bowels and make you laugh at the infidels using RCA hook ups. Do not let anyone sell you on these things. There are going to be people that swear by this, and for that I will just say it is placebo effect at it's finest. If you spend that amount of money, you will be convinced it looks better just because you paid the extra cash. The only thing you want to concern yourself with is to make sure the cable is shielded to keep out surrounding noise from penetrating the cable when transmitting the signal. Gold plated connections do seem to work a little better with picture quality, but you can find the same gold plated connections for about $5.00 more.

A word on Avia and calibration DVD programs.

There are DVD's that you can purchase that come with tinted colored glasses that guide you through a process to get the best picture out of your set for whichever room you have it in. It will go through brightness levels, contrast, tint, color, sharpness, etc - and at the end you will have an optimized picture.

THX DVD's comes with their own optimizer if you do not want to spend extra money on personal calibration. You can run these tests from any normal DVD player and select the THX options from the DVD movie itself.

THX also has a sound test to make sure you have correctly set up your sound system. While not as in depth as something on Avia, you still have enough to work with to make sure your speakers are correctly placed.

6. Warranties
Utnayan posted:

This is kind of a tough one. 7% of people who purchase a warranty actually use them. One time though it saved my ass on a 51" Sony RPTV that shipped with a defective engineering flaw and I ended up getting a brand new set/new model. I purchased one with my 34" HDTV Sony. It was $199.99 and gives me peace of mind for a $1500 purchase. With that said if you can call the manufacturer to do warranty service, do it. Not a knock on technicians from super stores, but technicians from the mom and pop stores that are authorized by the manufacturer have better service, follow through, and want to see you happy. On a side note, if you can purchase a set from one of these smaller stores, you may pay an additional $100-200 more, but the service you receive for the life of your product will pay for it in the long run.

7. Setup
qirex posted:

Viewing distance calculator:
http://www.myhometheater.homestead....calculator.html
Contrary to popular belief it is very possible to get a TV that's too big.

16:9 and 4:3 size calculator:
Compute TV dimensions
This can give you a good idea of what you're in for as far as watching SD on a 16:9 set or vice-versa. I'm of the opinion that stretching and zooming is for suckas and if you watch a lot of TV or play older games a lot a 4:3 still might be the best choice.

1080p vs. 720p

HDGuru.com posted:

HDTV Lies, False Claims and Nonsense Part 2 HDGURU.Com

1080p displays are defined as HDTVs with a native resolution of 1920 x 1080 that refresh the entire image every 1/60th of a second

The Claim

1080p displays are the only HDTVs you should consider buying.

The Reality

The concept of a 1080p being the only HDTV you should purchase is a misinformed generalization. This myth has been perpetuated by various HDTV manufacturers and retailers. The reality, a high contrast ratio display with deep blacks will be perceived as sharper than comparable size 1080p display with a lower contrast ratio (see below for more on contrast ratio). Screen size is another factor.

1080p HDTVs, with screens less than 45” have little inherent advantage over 720p displays. The smaller the display the harder it is to see a detail improvement when compared to a 1080p display. Why? The 720p and 768p screens under 45” already pack the pixels very tightly together.

A similar effect can be observed with 7″ and under standard definition TVs (480 lines of resolution). Theses tiny TVs appear very sharp because the lines of resolution are very close to each other.

Another consideration what will be your viewing distance? The further back you sit from the optimum viewing distance for 1080p (see chart) the harder it is to see the difference between 720p and 1080p. When you sit back beyond the maximum 720p viewing distance, you simply can’t justify the added cost of 1080p display.

What to do about it?

For screens below 45” consider a 720p display with high contrast and deep blacks over a 1080p display with lower contrast ratio. With the picture controls properly adjusted, you will be seen a wonderful sharp detailed high definition image that looks better that the 1080p model and costs less.

Copyright 2006 HD Guru (sm) All rights reserved.

Video game info!

Xbox 360

The Xbox 360 supports HDTV gaming using the component cables included with the Xbox 360 Premium. The Xbox 360 can also output HD signals to computer monitors using the available VGA cable.

Supported resolutions: SDTV, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p lots of weird computer resolutions.

Playstation 3

The PS3 will support HDTV gaming using component cables, or HDMI.

Supported resolutions: SDTV, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p


Wii

The Wii will support 16:9 480p widescreen.

[Spock]

Traditionally, TV has been broadcast at 480i

In America. In Oz we've always had 576i.

[fry]

Im just about to get a new TV too. Went to see my mate who works at Harvey Norman to see what he recommended. Wanted to get something at the end of financial year sales... he said wait a little because Sony was releasing updated version of the Bravia - at the same price as previous version - and in July they are giving you a free PS3. So if you dont really really want a 360 then the free PS3 is a nice option - that and its a pretty decent blueray player too.

Nice review of the TV here - Sony Bravia KDL-40W4000 Full HD 40in LCD TV - TrustedReviews

Problem is because its a new model a lot of places dont have it in yet. They want to get rid of the old stock first. He was able to get them to order one in for me tho - so thats the one im going for