PSB Fitness MEGATHREAD - Nutrition and supplement discussion

[Revelations]

I ran 5km on the beach this evening and followed it up with some core work on the outside gym things at cott beach. It wasn't a fast enough run - i was sprinting in comparison back in the day.
Anyone got a good recommendation for protein / carbs? I'm thinking I might just go with the Musashi Bulk from the local shop but it isn't really cheap.
Also, what does NO things do? Because me and a mate had it one time as free samples and apart from tasting really bad, it made you OD on excess energy + need to yack yet not having anything come up. we did twice as much stuff as normal in half the time.

I will be getting an ipod off a mate soon as well, i need angry music when running.

musashi bulk is a weight gainer- very high in cals you prob wouldnt want that if your trying to lose weight. You can get protein shakes with a moderate amount of carbs in them if you look for them, that are a lot lower in cals than purpose built weight gainers. Why do you want a shake though?
NO, Shotgun, NanoVapor, Superpump etc are all claimed stimulants. The jury is out on their effectiveness, however i have seen it work more for some, and others not so much. How sensitive are you to a failry large splash of caffeine? I actually use superpump when im down a bit on energy and have half the dose. I find that is enough to give me that pick me up and get me a little focused in the gym. It isnt a magic potion ofcourse, but if your lacking in energy it can help. But so can a SUGARLESS redbull ...and yeah NO tastes nasty. Common side effects of these are actually the squirts
Get that ipod, music helps sooooo much!

btw, you rock orson- that takes nuts

[Professor Redfern]

One thing I try to live by is what I call 'The ten thousand BC diet.

Most shit in today society is high calorie, cheap, quickly digested crap but this isnt what the human body has evolved to be able to handle.

As we all know Evo takes a long time so while we are chowing down sugary drinks, high carb breads, biscuits , and sugary cereals, then chowing pasta for dinner our body is still designed for life ten thousand years ago.

If you look at all this logically with no science involved its is mostly stuff that when thrown in a bucket of water will turn to mush almost instantly.

When you swallow it, it turns to mush in your stomach just as quickly, so your body has these tiny particles of food that are easily digested and as they are high in energy your body cant burn it all and stores it as fat.

Now a lot of people will say " but I dont eat much junk food, why am I so fat? I must have big bones or a bad metabolism its hereditary"

Well the answer is because most shit that is considered normal food by our brains is actually junk food by the bodies standards. So we need to not only stay away from junk food but also stay away from high calorie food in general. Foods like Bread especially white bread, Cereals, Pastas, biscuits and cakes and especially soft drinks"

So ask yourself how many of these you eat in a day, I can honestly say I dont eat any of these daily and can easily go a whole week without any of them. Maybe Rev's, OD, Druu, and other PT's can mention how often they do

Now Im not trying to say cut out all carbs because that isnt smart your body needs them, what I am saying is change the carbs you eat.

I eat rolled oats for breakfast raw, with nothing but skim milk. I eat Jerky for a snack I eat chicken and salad pita bread rolls for lunch, Before I go to the gym I will eat more oats and for dinner I will eat meat and salads(no dressing, If you must have dressing use an egg). I only drink water, milk and tea in a day, and have some low carb protein shakes.

I am 95 kilos, and I walk 3 km in the morning to 1hr+ in the gym in the arvos and then I will walk again after the gym for another 3km.

I can survive on this much energy so others should be able to as well.

It is possible to change metabolism and all it takes is a diet change, Your sweet tooth will also change, people think Im mad for eating raw oats but after doing it for a while I actually started tasting their natural sweetness.

Back to the original idea, if they didnt eat it in ten thousand BC try not to eat it now, back then they ate vegetables, whole grains and meat.

So try and stick to this simple idea when making dinner, it doesnt make it any harder to prepare and treat yourself to one cheat day a week but dont over do it.

I hope this could help Im not trying to preach but I find people over complicate the whole diet thing and then it becomes a task instead of being easy and logical. You wont need to count calories or constantly read labels if you stick to this idea.

Disclaimer: Clearly there is a bit of technical stuff I may not have mentioned, but I am trying to keep it simple easy and healthy.

[brendanc]

One thing I try to live by is what I call 'The ten thousand BC diet.

Most shit in today society is high calorie, cheap, quickly digested crap but this isnt what the human body has evolved to be able to handle.

As we all know Evo takes a long time so while we are chowing down sugary drinks, high carb breads, biscuits , and sugary cereals, then chowing pasta for dinner our body is still designed for life ten thousand years ago.

If you look at all this logically with no science involved its is mostly stuff that when thrown in a bucket of water will turn to mush almost instantly.

When you swallow it, it turns to mush in your stomach just as quickly, so your body has these tiny particles of food that are easily digested and as they are high in energy your body cant burn it all and stores it as fat.

Now a lot of people will say " but I dont eat much junk food, why am I so fat? I must have big bones or a bad metabolism its hereditary"

Well the answer is because most shit that is considered normal food by our brains is actually junk food by the bodies standards. So we need to not only stay away from junk food but also stay away from high calorie food in general. Foods like Bread especially white bread, Cereals, Pastas, biscuits and cakes and especially soft drinks"

So ask yourself how many of these you eat in a day, I can honestly say I dont eat any of these daily and can easily go a whole week without any of them. Maybe Rev's, OD, Druu, and other PT's can mention how often they do

Now Im not trying to say cut out all carbs because that isnt smart your body needs them, what I am saying is change the carbs you eat.

I eat rolled oats for breakfast raw, with nothing but skim milk. I eat Jerky for a snack I eat chicken and salad pita bread rolls for lunch, Before I go to the gym I will eat more oats and for dinner I will eat meat and salads(no dressing, If you must have dressing use an egg). I only drink water, milk and tea in a day, and have some low carb protein shakes.

I am 95 kilos, and I walk 3 km in the morning to 1hr+ in the gym in the arvos and then I will walk again after the gym for another 3km.

I can survive on this much energy so others should be able to as well.

It is possible to change metabolism and all it takes is a diet change, Your sweet tooth will also change, people think Im mad for eating raw oats but after doing it for a while I actually started tasting their natural sweetness.

Back to the original idea, if they didnt eat it in ten thousand BC try not to eat it now, back then they ate vegetables, whole grains and meat.

So try and stick to this simple idea when making dinner, it doesnt make it any harder to prepare and treat yourself to one cheat day a week but dont over do it.

I hope this could help Im not trying to preach but I find people over complicate the whole diet thing and then it becomes a task instead of being easy and logical. You wont need to count calories or constantly read labels if you stick to this idea.

Disclaimer: Clearly there is a bit of technical stuff I may not have mentioned, but I am trying to keep it simple easy and healthy.

Great advice Redfern

further reading Paleolithic Diet Page (Paleo Diet, Caveman Diet, Hunter/Gatherer Diet)

[TAWNY OWL]

In a word "Creatine".
I played soccer for many years, and would always strip down to low 70kg's during the season
(just high metabolism, as you probably have...no-one understands us or appreciates how difficult this can make holding on to weight in a fat-conscious world).
I have used "Creatine" many times when weight training to put on an extra 5-7 kilo's.
I won't go into how it works, as it's easier to google it, but the basic product is cheap and easy to use, with good results.
Married to a personal trainer means I get "good oil" 24-7 every day and have tried a few things, but this does not harm the body and as long as you stay hydrated, will do the biz reasonably quickly.
Cheers,
Tawny

[Desmo]

In a word "Creatine".
I played soccer for many years, and would always strip down to low 70kg's during the season
(just high metabolism, as you probably have...no-one understands us or appreciates how difficult this can make holding on to weight in a fat-conscious world).
I have used "Creatine" many times when weight training to put on an extra 5-7 kilo's.
I won't go into how it works, as it's easier to google it, but the basic product is cheap and easy to use, with good results.
Married to a personal trainer means I get "good oil" 24-7 every day and have tried a few things, but this does not harm the body and as long as you stay hydrated, will do the biz reasonably quickly.
Cheers,
Tawny

Creatine has absolutely nothing to do with adding bulk, it helps by reducing the rest time and muscle recovery time between workouts.

[Professor Redfern]

Creatine has absolutely nothing to do with adding bulk, it helps by reducing the rest time and muscle recovery time between workouts.

It sort of does, It makes you retain water in the cells so your muscles get bigger due to increased water retention.

[GSXRossi]

It sort of does, It makes you retain water in the cells so your muscles get bigger due to increased water retention.

be it placebo (spelling?) effect or wether it works, i've found i get far greater strength and power gains whilst on creatine, how ever it does seem to limit my aerobic fitness, ESPECIALLY if you dont have enough water prior to going for a run

otherwise my run down is. . . when i was 21yoa was 193cm at 85kg, 2 years later put on and maintained 10 kilos, i float from 93-95kg's
i've struggled with putting weight until i hit about 22, now if i work at it, it stays.
started my new cycle about 3 weeks ago, creatine by red back (at work cant remember name) before and after full body work out with free weights in the garage. and i use true mass as well, usually only before breaky and jsut before i go to bed. will be moving to 4 shakes a day in about 2 weeks.

shake includes my creatine mix, 2 egg, a banana, table spoon of milo, n whatever i feel is the go at the time

just saw the thread, will have a big read when not at work

[Melchior]

One thing I try to live by is what I call 'The ten thousand BC diet.

Thanks for that Redfern, you've inspired me...

After reading the links that were posted, well some of them - there's heaps of info - I'm giving this a go. Makes alot of sense to me.

Lately I've been craving sugar after meals, no doubt due to the amount of carbs I'm eating, messing with my blood sugar levels.

[Band-Aid]

In a word "Creatine".- but this does not harm the body and as long as you stay hydrated, will do the biz reasonably quickly.
Cheers,
Tawny

It's truly great stuff and has helped me in the past, however it does have the potential to harm the body. It's metabolised into Creatinine by the kidneys. Too much for too long can and will fuck with your kidneys so it's safer to use it a few months at a time and then stop using it for a while.
Also CS4 is on the money - it provides your muscles with extra energy. I believe it's the other source of anaerobic metabolism (Glucose then Creatine - then fat is your source of aerobic metabolism)

[GSXRossi]

It's truly great stuff and has helped me in the past, however it does have the potential to harm the body. It's metabolised into Creatinine by the kidneys. Too much for too long can and will fuck with your kidneys so it's safer to use it a few months at a time and then stop using it for a while.
Also CS4 is on the money - it provides your muscles with extra energy. I believe it's the other source of anaerobic metabolism (Glucose then Creatine - then fat is your source of aerobic metabolism)

ive done a little net research on this, creatine mono hydrate, can/does cause some kidney damage, and you should be off it for as long as your cycle on it, ie on it for 3 weeks, then off for three weeks. on for 8 then off for 8

however micronized creatine monohydrate has a smaller crystal and is more easliy absobed by the body, and from what i saw was that you can be on this for longer with less damage, and theres no loading process with this type

then the other one i've come accross is creatine ethyl ester, which is creatine but with an attached glucose molecule, which 'trick's your body into absorbing it because excesses of creatine are not naturally taken in by the body but disposed of. . . i tried this stuff. those are the only ones ive tried/researched.

by far had the best results with the micronised version + there are no stomach cramps associated with the normal monohydrate. . . hope it helps. . . if im wrong some one feel free to point it out. .

cheers
nick

[Band-Aid]

ive done a little net research on this, creatine mono hydrate, can/does cause some kidney damage, and you should be off it for as long as your cycle on it, ie on it for 3 weeks, then off for three weeks. on for 8 then off for 8

however micronized creatine monohydrate has a smaller crystal and is more easliy absobed by the body, and from what i saw was that you can be on this for longer with less damage, and theres no loading process with this type

then the other one i've come accross is creatine ethyl ester, which is creatine but with an attached glucose molecule, which 'trick's your body into absorbing it because excesses of creatine are not naturally taken in by the body but disposed of. . . i tried this stuff. those are the only ones ive tried/researched.

by far had the best results with the micronised version + there are no stomach cramps associated with the normal monohydrate. . . hope it helps. . . if im wrong some one feel free to point it out. .

cheers
nick

That all rings a bell and I think it's all true. I've tried the product Max's CreaX3 with great results. I believe it contains all 3 forms of the creatine and is pretty good bang for your buck. Although it tastes like shit!...and it curdles milk so can't go in your shakes lol

[TAWNY OWL]

Creatine has absolutely nothing to do with adding bulk, it helps by reducing the rest time and muscle recovery time between workouts.

Actually, it does. A by product of using it, is that after exercise it hydrates the muscles, so forcing them to grow slightly. Yes, it does definitley extend training times, but having used it, and other forms of supplement can say that after 1-2 weeks the hydration is easy to see, and feel. Muscles repair easier and the hydration makes them fuller, which drops off after a few weeks when I don't take it. I don't train any differently when on or off the stuff, so can catagorically say that it works. It doesn't make you huge, by the way, as for that you need to build in a lot of hypertrophy based training, as opposed to basic strength or general fitness. I do virtually no cardio at all, as it just strips the muscles off me.

[Taylor]

Does that mean it makes your muscles, and by extension your body, retain water? Does that extra fluid dilute the acids after workouts?

Does that fluid get harvested when you need to sweat, long cardio fitness work? Is that why it strips muscle off you?

I don't find much difference in bodybuilding while I'm doing cardio. I train six days a week, run one, weights one but I'm going to have to have a break soon to fix my ankle.

How have you guys found ice baths? The couple of days after a hard run are much easier for me when I've sat in the pool for five minutes after. Has anyone tried it?

[TAWNY OWL]

That all rings a bell and I think it's all true. I've tried the product Max's CreaX3 with great results. I believe it contains all 3 forms of the creatine and is pretty good bang for your buck. Although it tastes like shit!...and it curdles milk so can't go in your shakes lol

Also, be careful of liquid-based creatine supplements, as they can evry easily break down into Creatinine, (I think is the right word it) which does nothing.
Creatine does not mix readily with most cold fluids, but put in with warm water dissolves almost instantly. Then it does not play havoc with the body's internal organs. Also, taken with a natural sugar (Fructose, Glucose etc) will assimilate much quicker into the body. You don't need much, and yes, most will pass straight through the system unless used, which is a good thing. Your body drops out it's self produced excess as well.

Does that mean it makes your muscles, and by extension your body, retain water? Does that extra fluid dilute the acids after workouts?

Does that fluid get harvested when you need to sweat, long cardio fitness work?

I can make you get cramps if you're not hydrated enough, yes.
When I was playing soccer I had to be very careful with the dosage. I overdid one day and I crashed big time, but I was just trialling then and was working out what to take. I ended up on 1 1/2 teaspoons with 2 of "sugar" in warm water. Worked a treat. Basically you should not use it if you are regularly doing major cardio, as it is counter-productive.

How have you guys found ice baths? The couple of days after a hard run are much easier for me when I've sat in the pool for five minutes after. Has anyone tried it?

They used to be brilliant, but I hated them. Thankfully I'm retired from soccer and coaching, so don't trash my legs enough any more to need them

[Revelations]

creatine reading...btw creatine ethyl ester is no where near as effective as plain ol micronized. Dont buy into the hype.

http://www.supplementwatch.com/Suppl..._version).html Daily, about 1-2 grams of creatine are normally produced in the body from arginine, glycine and methionine. Dietary sources, including meat and fish, add another 1-2 grams/day of creatine – although over-cooking destroys most of the creatine (the 1-gram of creatine in an 8-ounce steak may fall to zero if that steak is well-done). In the body, creatine plays a vital role in cellular energy production as creatine phosphate (phosphocreatine) in regenerating adenosine triphosphate (ATP) in skeletal muscle. Oral administration of creatine in supplement form elevates muscle creatine stores, increases muscular strength, and improves exercise performance in short-duration, sprint-type sports. As such, creatine supplements are typically marketed as bodybuilding and “strength-boosting” supplements to enhance muscle growth and power output.



Comments

Creatine has become one of the hottest sports supplements for one major reason – it works. Creatine is effective in specific situations – those activities that are high-intensity and require short bouts of repeated explosive activity (e.g. weight lifting, football, sprinting). Athletes in other sports may achieve an indirect benefit, as creatine supplements may allow more intense levels of weight training, with strength and power benefits of that higher-intensity training transferring to their sport.



Scientific Support

Creatine is stored in muscle cells as phosphocreatine (PC) and is used to help generate cellular energy for muscle contractions. It also may increase the amount of water that each muscle cell holds – thus increasing the size of the muscle (and possibly its function as well). Although it has not been studied extensively, there may also be a role for creatine in maintaining muscle mass and preventing the muscle wasting that occurs as a result of aging and in chronic conditions such as AIDS and heart failure (Terjung et al. 2000).



At this writing, more than 2-dozen well-controlled clinical studies exist to support the efficacy of creatine supplements in improving performance in high intensity, repeated bout activities (weight lifting, sprinting, jumping). Creatine supplements do not appear to enhance physical performance, however, among subjects performing lower intensity endurance activity such as cycling or running (Vandebeurre et al. 1998), although there is limited evidence that creatine supplements may enhance the ability of skeletal muscles to store glycogen (a potential endurance benefit). Although increased muscle mass could conceivably enhance endurance performance, the weight gain from water and muscle weight may even result in a decline in performance.



The benefits of creatine are likely to be due, at least in part, to an increased ability to train harder – thus increasing strength. This might be good news to athletes who are training intensely, but it means that creatine alone (without exercise) would probably have very little effect on the muscle mass of sedentary individuals (Bermon et al. 1998). A significant gain in physical performance in high-intensity exercise has been shown with creatine doses of 20 to 30 g/day, but more recent research is indicating that similar performance benefits are possible with much lower doses in the range of 2-5 grams/day, but taken for a longer period of time (Terjung et al. 2000).



Daily creatine supplements (5-10g/day/ for 5-12 days) also seem to increase balance and muscle strength in the legs, hands, and feet of patients with muscular dystrophy (Terjuung et al. 2000). Such patients usually have lower creatine levels than healthy people, so boosting muscle stores may help augment cellular energy production and support muscular contraction. Although this may be considered a relatively small gain, it may be very important to that person who can now pick up a glass of water, button a shirt, or walk unaided across a room.



Safety/Dosage

Although the long-term effects of prolonged creatine use has not been examined, no obvious adverse effects have been linked to use of creatine as a dietary supplement for periods in excess of 5 years (Graham et al. 1999, Poortmans et al. 1999, Volek et al. 2000). Side effects reported anecdotally include gastrointestinal distress, nausea, dehydration and muscle cramping - but none of these effects have been documented in scientific studies. A cautionary note is also advised, for people with kidney disorders and for those at risk for dehydration (such as exercise in extreme heat or during cutting weight for wrestling or lightweight crew).



The most common regimen for creatine supplementation follows a two-phase cycle with a 5-10 day loading phase (20-25 g/day) followed by a variable length maintenance phase (2-5 g/day) to maintain muscle saturation. Creatine absorption appears to be enhanced when the supplement is taken with a high-carbohydrate drink such as fruit juice (Tarnopolsky et al. 2001). It is unclear, however, whether the loading phase is actually needed to achieve the observed benefits on muscle size and power – and lower dose regimens using the maintenance phase only (2-5 grams/day) appear to deliver the same benefits in a slightly longer time period.



References

1.Aaserud R, Gramvik P, Olsen SR, Jensen J. Creatine supplementation delays onset of fatigue during repeated bouts of sprint running. Scand J Med Sci Sports. 1998 Oct;8(5 Pt 1):247-51.

2.Archer MC. Use of oral creatine to enhance athletic performance and its potential side effects. Clin J Sport Med. 1999 Apr;9(2):119.

3.Becque MD, Lochmann JD, Melrose DR. Effects of oral creatine supplementation on muscular strength and body composition. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2000 Mar;32(3):654-8.

4.Bermon S, Venembre P, Sachet C, Valour S, Dolisi C. Effects of creatine monohydrate ingestion in sedentary and weight-trained older adults. Acta Physiol Scand. 1998 Oct;164(2):147-55.

5.Casey A, Greenhaff PL. Does dietary creatine supplementation play a role in skeletal muscle metabolism and performance? Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Aug;72(2 Suppl):607S-17S.

6.Feldman EB. Creatine: a dietary supplement and ergogenic aid. Nutr Rev. 1999 Feb;57(2):45-50.

7.Graham AS, Hatton RC. Creatine: a review of efficacy and safety. J Am Pharm Assoc (Wash). 1999 Nov-Dec;39(6):803-10.

8.Jones AM, Atter T, Georg KP. Oral creatine supplementation improves multiple sprint performance in elite ice-hockey players. J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 1999 Sep;39(3):189-96.

9.Juhn MS, Tarnopolsky M. Oral creatine supplementation and athletic performance: a critical review. Clin J Sport Med. 1998 Oct;8(4):286-97.

10.Leenders NM, Lamb DR, Nelson TE. Creatine supplementation and swimming performance. Int J Sport Nutr. 1999 Sep;9(3):251-62.

11.Mujika I, Padilla S, Ibanez J, Izquierdo M, Gorostiaga E. Creatine supplementation and sprint performance in soccer players. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2000 Feb;32(2):518-25.

12.Poortmans JR, Francaux M. Long-term oral creatine supplementation does not impair renal function in healthy athletes. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Aug;31(8):1108-10.

13.Rawson ES, Clarkson PM. Acute creatine supplementation in older men. Int J Sports Med. 2000 Jan;21(1):71-5.

14.Robinson TM, Sewell DA, Casey A, Steenge G, Greenhaff PL. Dietary creatine supplementation does not affect some haematological indices, or indices of muscle damage and hepatic and renal function. Br J Sports Med. 2000 Aug;34(4):284-8.

15.Tarnopolsky MA, Parise G, Yardley NJ, Ballantyne CS, Olatinji S, Phillips SM. Creatine-dextrose and protein-dextrose induce similar strength gains during training. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2001 Dec;33(12):2044-52.

16.Terjung RL, Clarkson P, Eichner ER, Greenhaff PL, Hespel PJ, Israel RG, Kraemer WJ, Meyer RA, Spriet LL, Tarnopolsky MA, Wagenmakers AJ, Williams MH. American College of Sports Medicine roundtable. The physiological and health effects of oral creatine supplementation. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2000 Mar;32(3):706-17.

17.Vandebuerie F, Vanden Eynde B, Vandenberghe K, Hespel P. Effect of creatine loading on endurance capacity and sprint power in cyclists. Int J Sports Med. 1998 Oct;19(7):490-5.

18.Volek JS, Duncan ND, Mazzetti SA, Putukian M, Gomez AL, Kraemer WJ. No effect of heavy resistance training and creatine supplementation on blood lipids. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2000 Jun;10(2):144-56.

[Desmo]

Actually, it does. A by product of using it, is that after exercise it hydrates the muscles, so forcing them to grow slightly. Yes, it does definitley extend training times, but having used it, and other forms of supplement can say that after 1-2 weeks the hydration is easy to see, and feel. Muscles repair easier and the hydration makes them fuller, which drops off after a few weeks when I don't take it. I don't train any differently when on or off the stuff, so can catagorically say that it works. It doesn't make you huge, by the way, as for that you need to build in a lot of hypertrophy based training, as opposed to basic strength or general fitness. I do virtually no cardio at all, as it just strips the muscles off me.

Mate, adding bulk is adding actual muscle mass, NOT adding water to your muscles so you appear bigger.
Sorry.

[TAWNY OWL]

Mate, adding bulk is adding actual muscle mass, NOT adding water to your muscles so you appear bigger.
Sorry.

Q. What benefits do supplements of creatine provide? A. The majority of those who take creatine find that their muscle size increases and many notice in improvement in strength. The increase in size may be due to a combination of water retention and increased protein synthesis. Creatine also increases oxygen uptake by muscle tissue and improves performance. Whatever the reason for the muscle bulking, the toned look often improves one's body image. Creatine has also been tested with positive results in those whose muscles have atrophied due to neuromuscular diseases.
FAQs About Creatine
© 2000 Ray Sahelian M.D.

QED?

[Desmo]

Meh.
All I'm saying is my idea of bulking up isn't fluid retention.

[GSXRossi]

Meh.
All I'm saying is my idea of bulking up isn't fluid retention.

the immediate weight and bulk is water retention, the extra water in your muscles gets you on the mend quicker, and with more mass than you would other wise, i cant quote reference now, but i have read somewhere, that its can be up to a 15% improvement.
from personal experience, my strength gains are far greater when on it than if i was off it, and my recovery time is around a day before soresness is gone from a work out. vs's around 2 days

all i can say is go buy some, do a cycle, see how ya go. then speak from an educated point of reference

otherwise, posting before pic(no flash) and 3 week pic(flash fail), not much difference, i can see some, probably just in my head, and yes im a pastey mofo

so far in three weeks gone from 50kg bench, to 75kg (3 sets 10)<---last set is until fail
15kg dumbel curls to 20kg dumbel curls (3 sets 12) <---last set is until fail

[TAWNY OWL]

[QUOTE=Revelations;1558683]creatine reading...btw creatine ethyl ester is no where near as effective as plain ol micronized. Dont buy into the hype.QUOTE]

Thanks dude, a good load of info. Have a great book sent out by Peak Performance on it, but would take too long to scan!!