scampy's project

scampy · 26-07-2008, 09:21 AM

Anyone that looks at That Other Perth-Based Motorcycle Site would know I've been talking about a project bike for some time now. Way too long in fact - I suspect I've pushed out more hot air than any engine ever could. However, it's now happening:

The remnants of a crashed 2004 Kawasaki Z 1000. The frame's completely stuffed. I might, at the end of everything, use it as a rather elaborate paperweight, but it's of little use for anything else. I just bought it for the engine, gearbox and electrics, mainly, though I will be poaching anything of value that I can use.

The reason the frame's stuffed is the bike hit the road at some point, and hit it hard. When that happened, fortunately it had a crash cage fitted, and the cage took the majority of the blow. It bent the frame in the process, though, which is why the frame's not usable, but it saved the engine from any significant damage except for a split in the rocker cover (top pic) and some custom cheesegrater-effect work on the clutch cover (bottom pic). Easily fixable.

Low kilometres. A good selling point, but largely irrelevant to me since I'll be stripping down the engine in any case and building it to my specs - meaning, getting more ponies out of it. Also, since the bike crashed and likely lay on its side for a while, it'll need a stripdown to ensure everything's A-OK. I suspect it is - the engine has been run post-crash and sounded all right - but better safe than sorry. And since I was going to strip it down anyway...

The plan, originally, was to streetfighter the crap out of it, but now my thoughts have taken a different direction. I would like to get a custom frame built, even though I am aware of (a) how hideously expensive and time-consuming that would be; and (b) how hideously difficult and time-consuming getting it licensed would be, but I figure, it's my project, right? Why compromise and end up with something I'm not entirely happy with?

To that end, here are some rough ideas of where this project is going to go:

Chassis: Custom, either completely customised from the ground up, or an extensively modified Kawasaki frame. Say goodbye to the subframe though: this bike will seat one person and one person only.

Front end: Telescopic forks? Who needs 'em?

Rear end: Double-sided swingarm? Maaaaybe...but I'd prefer not.

Watch this space...

XSorXpire · 26-07-2008, 09:48 AM

So what laws are in place to build a frame?
Do you need to have a design done by a mechanical engineer?
What sort of testing foillows it up?

The anti dive suspension broke on the front of my bike so i made block off plates. It took all the movement out of the front forks. It chattered around corners and constently understeered. It changed diresction well, but made my arms ache.
Some sort of movement in the front will make it more fun to ride.

scampy · 26-07-2008, 06:56 PM

You can do your own design, but you need to do it in consultation with an engineer, so they can say "No, that will be too weak", "That's overkill, it's too strong", etc. This is where SolidWorks comes into its own - one of two computer programs I'd love to learn how to use properly (the other is Adobe Photoshop).

Testing depends on how many frames you plan on building. If it's just a one-off - as will be the case with mine - then the engineer signs off on it and says, so long as the frame is built to these specs it will be fine. If you're going to put the frame into production, you build one, it gets tested to destruction, then you build another, so long as the first one was proven okay.

There's more to it than that, that's just a rough overview. Like I said, expensive, difficult and time-consuming process, but, to my mind, worth it.

And there are better, though obviously less-common alternatives to telescopic forks out there. At the moment I'm thinking a Hossack-style double wishbone setup, but hub-centric steering just looks amazing. Difficult as hell to set up though.

Desmogod · 26-07-2008, 07:03 PM

The problem with hub centre steering is that you get little, if any feedback from the front end, which is a shame, because geometrically it's a far superior design to telescopic forks. There's a reason they use forks, cost and efficiency.
Does the confederate wraith use Hossack wishbones?

g0zer · 26-07-2008, 07:48 PM

that is going to take a lot of time and money to turn (edit: use to contribute to) into something that goes.

could turn it into a track bike.. at least that will save you the hassels of getting it road registered

Billywhizz · 26-07-2008, 10:58 PM

Big task, but good luck

dont forget to visit the ASF, lots of contacts there for hand made frames

Spondon ect can be made and licenced here as some of the ASF guys have already used them... lots of dosh though

and of course get those photos up mate

bertie · 26-07-2008, 11:55 PM

soildworks is piss to use mate. you will pick it up in no time.

XSorXpire · 27-07-2008, 12:11 AM

I may or may not have a spare copy of the five cd's of solid works if that is what you want to use.

the[K]id · 27-07-2008, 04:35 AM

Subscribed, whatever path you take this sounds like it's going to be great to see. Hope you have plenty of friends with welders, lathes and mills

scampy · 27-07-2008, 11:30 AM

Thanks guys. I've been taking advantage of the wet weather today to bust the measuring tape out (for what little good it will do me: measure twice, cut once, find out you fucked up anyway) and get something happening.

BW: if you can put me in touch with anyone who's got the skills to build a home-made frame, that would be so very, very much appreciated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desmogod

The problem with hub centre steering is that you get little, if any feedback from the front end, which is a shame, because geometrically it's a far superior design to telescopic forks.

I know, but it just looks awesome, doesn't it? The front wheel kinda floating out there by itself. I will probably end up going with the Hossack double wishbones though. I do like the look of HCS, but I also like look of the Hossack system, since it's almost like telescopic forks, but without many of the drawbacks. And I've assisted in building double wishbone suspension on a racing kit car (1600cc Toyota-powered Westfield), so I've got some very limited experience there.

But I want to avoid telescopic forks. Everybody has telescopic forks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desmogod

Does the confederate wraith use Hossack wishbones?

Nope, it uses some sort of multi-link girder front end. I haven't looked into it too much, though it's always nice to see Americans stuffing bloody great V-twins into something other than your standard chopper. Love the fuel-in-frame idea too - something else I hope to end up using.

g0zer · 27-07-2008, 11:56 AM

maybe talk to alyz engineering it wouldnt be cheap though.. say its $80 per hour labour if you want them to design something thats gonna take time one day is 10hx$80 = $800 before you even have a days worth of design.

then fabrication of something like that 3 full days minimum $2400 then laterials and contingency for problems again. then swingarm and forks and suspension you are moving into 5 figures.

i reckon you would be better off find a frame that it fits into.

the[K]id · 27-07-2008, 04:19 PM

Sounds like you've got some sketching to do before you sit down with an engineer. If you don't have facilities for having parts made, then it will be much cheaper to find existing bikes with parts you want, eg steal a hossak front off a binned bimmer. Making parts for a custom front end would be hours on lathes and a mill or borer. Also things like fuel in frame are cool, but remember it will be an extra thing to design and build into the frame.

Not trying to kill your idea's, I'd like to see this get finished, not stuck on the paper stage

evo4wrx · 27-07-2008, 04:19 PM

Solidworks has a section called weldaments which you use to design the frame, cosmos editor etc which tests for metallurgy properties and stress testing and fracture points etc.
Its very easy to pickup, a bike frame is fairly basic for this software and the program is very intuitive with about 2 hours of the tutorials which you can do easily yourself you will know enough to design it. This is assuming that your inclined mechanically.

Having owned and built what was termed at the time a "locost" (not so locost by the time you finish 40G later, westerfield caterham copy). You need to pass some engineering sign offs down at the DPI, it was 4,000nm of torque from corner to corner with no more than 20mm of deflection for the locost.

The deal was back then about 2 years ago you had to get a build and frame number approved before you could start your build. The testing engineer who looked over my frame was located out in Welshpool and they will normally have some design changes which will they request of your drafts. For the locost it was side intrusion panels. All up about $1200 for them to approve and test the frame I used. Given the frame for a bike is a lot simpler.

I purchased two licenses of the software which go for about 5.5G ea. But of course torrent is always your friend.

To sum it up.....Very rewarding though give it a go.

Billywhizz · 27-07-2008, 04:58 PM

Get along to the ASF websitehttp://www.streetfighters.com.au and ask the question, plenty people there and they will all will be interested in what you do

http://www.spondonengineering.co.uk/will scare you shitless

Google is your freind
Oz
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=custom+made+motorcycle+frames&btnG= Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU
Other
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=custom+made+motorcycle+frames&btnG= Search&meta=

scampy · 27-07-2008, 06:24 PM

Heh thanks for everything so far guys.

First up, the build WILL get completed, one way or the other. A Certain Someone is not happy at all that I spent four figures on what I've currently got, and they will be even less happy if I don't finish it. So it'll get done!

Mel: I had a look at the Spondon site ages ago when I thought I had a GSX-R 1100 engine ready to go, only to find all I really had was a lump of completely useless, badly abused Japanese metal ready for bugger all. I wonder if the Z thou motor will fit in a ZX-9R-intended frame, since that's the motor the Z thou donk is based on. Could be worth looking into - the Spondon frames look fucking unreal, and it'd save a bunch of headaches.

But at the same time, a little voice in the back of my head keeps saying "isn't that the easy way out?"

Stupid little voices.

The other thing is, I can easily talk myself out of the fuel-in-frame idea, but I want to hide the fuel tank somewhere unexpected. If anyone watches American Chopper - holy hell, I heard the groans from here! - they built one bike where the fuel tank was made out of a rear fender and placed right in front of the rear wheel. Didn't hold much fuel, but if you didn't know the tank was there you'd be scratching your head wondering how the bike ran.

Anyway, this engine's going to end up in something that won't resemble the average motorcycle.

Watch this space...

the[K]id · 27-07-2008, 06:57 PM

Rooke did something similar with his KTM powered flat tracker, with a seat part of the frame/rear fender/seat. At last check a spondon setup was around the 10k mark? I'm sure someone will correct me, I only checked briefly and lost interest when I heard they were changing the way they operate.

There is heaps of info out there. American Chopper (shudder) is rather staid (lego kits with out sourced paint jobs imho...), but there are a few (small few) episodes of various programs (Biker build off etc) which show some helpful info, such as the jigs they use for frame build/modification etc. Eurospares.com is worth a look, old info but some good reading. Take a look at old kwaka and suzuki forums too, a ton of specials based on the old air/oil cooled donks and some have some amazing bespoke parts.

Also worth looking at is the small factories like Bimoto and Vyrus, they don't tend to follow the trends, they make there own.

I'm sure there are many people who can give you advice with regards to material choice, construction methods, parts choice etc but I guess the first step is to work out what your going to build. Your ability to include all modifications at the design stage with greatly reduce build time and cost.

Have fun, can't wait to see what you have pictured in your head!

PS: Grab Issue 171 of streetfighters mag, it has a duc with a HCS front end grafted to the stock frame. Rather ugly body work, but delicious engineering.