Turbo 04 R6 project

[Goofy]

By the way mate, I'm a little dissapointed... I've spent ages ripping on dukes lately and I haven't even gotten a bite out of you. What gives?
[/IMG]

You have? I haven't noticed.

So, how's the electricity situation? Did you get a new electricity tank for the R6 to stop it breaking down on you in future? wouldn't want to mess with that Japanese reliability.

[Ryder]

Ahh... Thats more like it

[STEEDS]

Keep up the good work........






Edit - BTW not you goofy

[polonY]

Excellent work, really is interesting to see the evolution.

[Doyle]

Love reading up on this build! Nice work, respect all the DIY you are doing.

Only negative thing I can think of is the flow on those headers would have to be pretty average :-/ (not knocking your work), you have obviously spent a lot of time and effort on the build, surely some pretty decent gains could be made from a revised header?

Some other DIY headers:

http://unclebobsturbos.com/Ts/ZRXT12/ZRXT12-header3.jpg
Turbo bike header image by crazyjrock on Photobucket

But look foward to following the build here till it is done

[g0zer]

cool the fairing even fits

[Ryder]

Cheers guys

Love reading up on this build! Nice work, respect all the DIY you are doing.

Only negative thing I can think of is the flow on those headers would have to be pretty average :-/ (not knocking your work), you have obviously spent a lot of time and effort on the build, surely some pretty decent gains could be made from a revised header?

Some other DIY headers:

http://unclebobsturbos.com/Ts/ZRXT12/ZRXT12-header3.jpg
Turbo bike header image by crazyjrock on Photobucket

But look foward to following the build here till it is done

I think you're right. But please remember, right from the start, this was supposed to be something of a venture into turbos and also at the same time turbos on bikes. I knew little to nothing about turbos before I started this project, and frankly I could spend years reading up on theory and still not have the best design for the bike . Really this is about cutting the crap and just starting to make it happen! I learn best by doing anyway...

Yes, the basic design of the manifold could be better, but I'm limited a fair bit by available space. Because of this any manifold I make will be a compromise somewhere, and it also seems to depend on what you read as to what is the perfect header. At least this one is simple, easy to make, relatively cheap and educational.

Lol I guess when this project is running, and being tuned and revised, I can take what I learn here and build a new, better, shiny MK2 manifold!

[chee]

first one is too long for a 600cc.

2nd one is nice though.

[Stratos]

Cheers guys



I think you're right. But please remember, right from the start, this was supposed to be something of a venture into turbos and also at the same time turbos on bikes. I knew little to nothing about turbos before I started this project, and frankly I could spend years reading up on theory and still not have the best design for the bike . Really this is about cutting the crap and just starting to make it happen! I learn best by doing anyway...

Yes, the basic design of the manifold could be better, but I'm limited a fair bit by available space. Because of this any manifold I make will be a compromise somewhere, and it also seems to depend on what you read as to what is the perfect header. At least this one is simple, easy to make, relatively cheap and educational.

Lol I guess when this project is running, and being tuned and revised, I can take what I learn here and build a new, better, shiny MK2 manifold!

People get concerned when I get ideas ...

So space is an issue, yes? Now I'm far too lazy to go back and look for pic's but I might assume its the radiator causing all this greif.

This is one of those 'sounds simple' ideas (it would be a mind fuck), but with inspiration from Benelli (and Britten) put the cooling system at the back of the bike under your arse with some appropriate venting (big arse fans). That would allow a fuckload more room to get semi-tuned even-length headers all merging at the turbo flange. But theeeeen you gotta weigh up effort vs effectiveness etc etc. Would be cool to have several impellers on the bike though.

Regardless though, mad props to you for starting and continuing this project Ryder! Ive been following it closely since the start.

[GD Engineering (Gavin)]

first one is too long for a 600cc.

2nd one is nice though.

Any particular reason?

[Desmo]

Lag possibly.

[Ryder]

People get concerned when I get ideas ...

So space is an issue, yes? Now I'm far too lazy to go back and look for pic's but I might assume its the radiator causing all this greif.

This is one of those 'sounds simple' ideas (it would be a mind fuck), but with inspiration from Benelli (and Britten) put the cooling system at the back of the bike under your arse with some appropriate venting (big arse fans). That would allow a fuckload more room to get semi-tuned even-length headers all merging at the turbo flange. But theeeeen you gotta weigh up effort vs effectiveness etc etc. Would be cool to have several impellers on the bike though.

Regardless though, mad props to you for starting and continuing this project Ryder! Ive been following it closely since the start.

Haha it's funny you should say that! I did actually consider this - not for the reason of a better manifold design, but because I wanted a place to put an intercooler...

Ended up coming to the conclusion that in the end, it wasn't really practical. I needed to consider things like cooling efficiency due to stock radiator design and reduced air flow, locations to neatly run coolant pipes, extra weight of pipes and additional coolant, cost of components - other things like would the stock water pump be able to cope with the extra load? And the oil cooler on the bike, it's just a heat exchanger to shunt the demand on the coolant - I'm already asking a lot of the oil to cope with a turbo without an external cooler - how would it handle a lower effiency cooling system? And a couple of other considerations I cant remember off the top of my head.

Really I think if you wanted to do this properly, you'd have to start with the basic engine design and go from there

Now I'm far too lazy to go back and look for pic's but I might assume its the radiator causing all this greif.

Partly, but it's also the turbo's clearance with the front tyre under heavy brakes. You see, I'm running a 70 profile front tyre as opposed to the stock 60 profile, and also have raised the forks 8mm through the clamps. This has helped me get handling I'm pretty happy with, but the downside is that when I was racing the bike, under heavy brakes the tyre was just touching the fairing just under the radiator. That means that anything I do to the turbo setup, it cannot protrude past that fairing!

[harns]

I've got a question:
With a NA engine all the header pipes would suck air equally while idling.
When the ram from velocity, or adding a turbo, make the headers pressurised, wouldn't the two intakes directly inline (ie middle two) get better airflow, unbalancing the cylinders?? Or is there something that regulates it?
Just curious,

[the[K]id]

With an NA engine, they don't suck equally, hence centre cylinders being jetted/tuned differently. Many bikes also have unequal length stacks to even things out. With forced induction it's all about the manifold design, many are tapered or fed centrally to get even pressure, and with decent volume its pretty equal at each inlet.

[harns]

oh right, thanks for clearing that up!

[chee]

Any particular reason?

as jim said, lag. but im just going by what experience i have with cars and such.

[GD Engineering (Gavin)]

Don't want to stir the pot....... but there are at least 3 reasons I can think of why?where the longer system is a better choice and none of them have to do with the length ( size doesn't matter , or so the ladies say!)

[the[K]id]

Don't want to stir the pot....... but there are at least 3 reasons I can think of why?where the longer system is a better choice and none of them have to do with the length ( size doesn't matter , or so the ladies say!)

The longer system directs flow directly at the turbine, with a fairly straight run for the part directly preceding the flange? Seems to pair up the cylinders for low end rather than high rpm power though? (From what I've seen in head design anyway)

With the effort put into the second, they would have been better off having the middle tubes running over the outers, and then curving straight down, reduces flow restrictions and creates more even runner lengths.

BTW: Anyone thinking you can fit an ideal turbo manifold on a bike, google equal length turbo manifolds, even with out a radiator you'd be lucky to fit anything close behind a wheel more than 3" in diameter.

[Ryder]

As mentioned before, the stock position of the oil outlet was a problem for me. Where I'm going to have the turbo mounted, it would mean the outlet would be on top of the turbo, not allowing the oil in the turbo to drain. This could cause problems such as excess oil pressure causing oil leaks into the inlet or exhaust, and the oil cooking in the turbo after turning the bike off.

Stock postion:



Ideally, this needs to be changed, by rotating the turbo core. The outlet should be at the bottom in order to drain the turbo totally, and put the oil back into the sump at a point above the sump oil level.

I found some exploded view diagrams of the turbo online, and with the help of a lot of WD40 separated the turbo core from the exhaust housing. Turns out that there is a pin they put in there, presumably to ensure consistancy during manufacture.

Here it is



In order to rotate the turbo core, this needs to be removed. I filed it off, and used a centre punch and hammer to ensure the remains sit below the level of the housing.

Pin removed



After that it was just a matter of carefully rotating and refitting the core to the housing - if it doesn't go on or come off square, the exhaust turbine could bind on the housing and damage the turbine.

New position



Please note, there's still a clamp to refit to the join, which holds the two parts together.

FYI, the compressor housing can be rotated in pretty much exactly the same way - although I was able to remove the pin on that side with a set of pliers. In the last pic, it still needs rotating to it's final position, but I need a big set of circlip pliers from work to do that.

[DTee]

Don't want to stir the pot....... but there are at least 3 reasons I can think of why?where the longer system is a better choice and none of them have to do with the length ( size doesn't matter , or so the ladies say!)

Here's a few:

Heat - You want the compressor housing kept cool - you want it away from the heat of the engine and in an airstream if possible. Turbine housing heat blankets etc can also help.

Flow - Longer manifolds should require less abrupt bends, giving less flow restriction to the exhaust gasses

Power - Longer manifolds are easier to build to an equal length, which will have power advantages in cetain rev ranges (depending on the length). Debateable if that will be of any worth on a project such as this though.

Oil - A turbo without oil = blown turbo. A sump without oil = blown motor. Use the longer manifold to get the turbo in a good position so gravity is helping, and not hindering oil flow and return.

Lag is much more a function of the turbine/compressor combination, trim and housing sizes (ie a small motor will take a long time to spool up a large turbo -> lag). Adding a few inches of exhaust or intake plumbing will not create any measurable turbo lag.