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Jaw
12-11-2012, 01:45 PM
Basically I was going to by a car. I put a deposit on the car yard subject to finance approval.

Approval for the full amount didnt happen but i said id be able to put in 30k cash to finish the deal, but itd take 3 weeks to transfer from an international bank. Dealer says ok if Iput a 5k deposit down. i do so by bank transfer.

Money comes, dad rushed to hospital in the uk, hes a cancer sufferer, so I had to go away, without pay for a bit. This eats into the reserves and 30k cash couldnt happen. I explain to the dealer who stops contacting me.

Now they have my 5k and he wont answer or return any calls or messages. Im going down there in a few weeks but am I right in thinking Im entitled to my money back?

Phildo
12-11-2012, 01:51 PM
Basically I was going to by a gtr. I put a deposit on the car yard subject to finance approval.

Approval for the full amount didnt happen but i said id be able to put in 30k cash to finish the deal, but itd take 3 weeks to transfer from an international bank. Dealer says ok if Iput a 5k deposit down. i do so by bank transfer.

Money comes, dad rushed to hospital in the uk, hes a cancer sufferer, so I had to go away, without pay for a bit. This eats into the reserves and 30k cash couldnt happen. I explain to the dealer who stops contacting me.

Now they have my 5k and he wont answer or return any calls or messages. Im going down there in a few weeks but am I right in thinking Im entitled to my money back?

Hi.

How are you?

I'm fine, thanks.

Welcome to Perth Street Bikes.

You could also consider joining Perth Auto Finance Problems.

Or, contact the Department of Commerce - www.commerce.wa.gov.au (http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au).

Have a great day!













FFS.

Jaw
12-11-2012, 01:55 PM
Sorry if the message was a bit straight to the point, bit of a stressful day...

B0RDEX
12-11-2012, 01:57 PM
Why do you think you're entitled to your deposit back?

What were the conditions of the contract? What have you signed, if anything?

Way too many variables here.

Desmo
12-11-2012, 02:00 PM
Do you understand the concept of the word "deposit"?

chew
12-11-2012, 02:01 PM
G'luck.

Not liking your chances but stranger things have happened.

Jaw
12-11-2012, 02:05 PM
Sorry, was a bit vague hey. Only condition of the contract I signed was "subject to approval of finance" of the sum in the contract to be financed on the car. I was advised by the broker that there would be no isses with the figure, but then came up short when I forwarded the paperwork.

Only thing in the contract relevant was that I would endeavour to seek approval, which I did. The dealer made a few comments as to sorting out a deal between me and him to push it through, nothing materialised and he lost all interest. No second contract was signed for the second deposit, it was off the back of emails.

Sookie
12-11-2012, 02:06 PM
If you signed that yellow bit of paper that says subject to finance. Then you signed another bit or made an amendment and initialled that yellow bit of paper then you can't get your money back. If not, you have everyright to get it back but goodluck as it will be a pain in the ass..but $5k is $5k so go for it sunny jim.

Sookie
12-11-2012, 02:08 PM
it was off the back of emails.

Enjoy your battle... Emails can be given as evidence, however theres nothing wrong with you not ever returning to collect your deposit. Legally you have given the dealer money to 'hold the car' however someone else could of easily purchased it and you would be informed that you must pay now or it goes to them.

Lucky you.

Jaw
12-11-2012, 02:08 PM
Do you understand the concept of the word "deposit"?

Of course, but it works a little different here to the uk so just trying to find out where my rights stand...

Left a deposit subject to finance approval which didnt happen, but i did get approval to a lesser amount, so just no t sure where i stand as the second deposit was put down after but the only contract was the initial one..

Desmo
12-11-2012, 02:08 PM
You agreed to a lump sum to presumably fill the gap between finance that occurred. The dealer agreed this was fine, along with holding the car for 3 weeks, as long as you paid a $5K deposit, which you agreed to.
You got finance, agreed to pay the gap and agreed to these conditions.
I'm sorry and I know this sounds harsh, but the only one who has broken a contract is you. This is the reason for deposits.

B0RDEX
12-11-2012, 02:09 PM
No second contract was signed for the second deposit, it was off the back of emails.

The problem you face now is that emails will still generally stand up as a written contract - it's your expressed consent in writing to this arrangement, and unless in your email you specified other conditions, which I'm guessing you didn't, you're dead in the water with this one.

Edit: Beaten, yeah, what Desmo said.

Manyak
12-11-2012, 02:10 PM
You put a deposit down 'Subject to finance' - when the finance fell through did you get your deposit back? Because as soon as your finance was rejected, the initial contract is void.

Anything after that is a totally different transaction/contract.. So you basically put a deposit down without signing anything..

Jaw
12-11-2012, 02:14 PM
Hmm as good as i suppose, will have a look at the emails. I sent him one saying subject to the original terms and conditions ive sent a deposit which he never responded to. Will look into what went back and forth.

Dont get me wrong, if its my fuck up it's my fuck up, shit happens. but if I'm entitled to it, I obviously want it back is all.

Cheers for the responses so far, appreciated.

filbert
12-11-2012, 02:16 PM
If the contract that you made a deposit on is written and signed by both parties as pending finance approval for the full amount then yes you are entitled to have your deposit refunded once all avenues for obtaining that finance have been exhausted....

If he can't get you finance through his finance guy he should be handing your money back.

If you made a variation on that contract that you would find the balance in cash and both signed it then you are obligated to leave that deposit with them, if you don't want to lose it then pick another car and strike a new deal.

If it was a verbal agreement or alteration then it's not worth the paper it's written on but what is your word worth to you? mine's worth less than $5k so I'd push for my deposit back :lol:

Jaw
12-11-2012, 02:25 PM
:lol: he never tried with his guys, said he didnt think itd work..

Thats where its a bit misty with regrds to varying an agreement.., ive just looked at the emails, and ive said if Im able to raise the cash from abroad Im still keen but it will take 3 weeks to find out.. I get an ok then send him subject to the original ts and cs, please see attached.. Then nothing.. I only said that I dont think I can do any more to make it happen, after he said He'd work out an agreement for the balance and then didnt call for 3 weeks.

If I'm right or partially so, I'm happy to take a partial on it as I can understand its not ideal for them either, most frustrating thing is that hes not responding. Even a 'politely get fucked' would be better than nothing!

BenG
12-11-2012, 02:28 PM
The original contract was null and void as soon as the finance was rejected.

However, if you agreed via email to a new deal, then that can be (depending on the exact content of the emails) legally binding. An agreement doesn't need the word contract at the top and a signature at the bottom to be binding. Even a verbal agreement is legally binding (though difficult to prove). This is no different to the English legal system either, so pleading ignorant pom won't work.

By the sounds of it, you have a contract with the dealer to buy the car, and you breached it by not coming up with the cash. If that's the case, you won't get your money back.

Taylor
12-11-2012, 02:40 PM
Have you investigated the possibility that you may have been in discussion with a con artist the entire time?

Jaw
12-11-2012, 02:57 PM
The original contract was null and void as soon as the finance was rejected.

However, if you agreed via email to a new deal, then that can be (depending on the exact content of the emails) legally binding. An agreement doesn't need the word contract at the top and a signature at the bottom to be binding. Even a verbal agreement is legally binding (though difficult to prove). This is no different to the English legal system either, so pleading ignorant pom won't work.

By the sounds of it, you have a contract with the dealer to buy the car, and you breached it by not coming up with the cash. If that's the case, you won't get your money back.

Youre right, its not, but usually in the UK, more often than not under normal circumstances, contracts arent in place for car deposits.. Especially at large manufacturer's dealerships..

Had a look through emails, nothing was said akin to any agreements, it must have been mostly verbal. Even then there was no indication of any altered terms or any otherwise implied terms. Whenever I have given updates by email, I've had no responses til I got him by phone. My email says please find deposit, ts and cs as per original contract. No response. All other emails are me chasing him for info to which he never replied.

Could have sworn hed replied but apparantly not, I simply had two emails giving me bank details, both blank. Spoke to the dept of commerce and their opinion was that they should return the money as the contract was based on finance and I can prove that I have exhaused all avenues and that they can't argue that I havent because they did not make an application themselves..

Kaido
12-11-2012, 03:00 PM
Do you mind me asking was this a brand new gtr? and if it was do you mind pm which dealer it is?

filbert
12-11-2012, 03:05 PM
In other states they have a cooling off period of 1 to 3 days on a contract WA has none, if canceled inside the cooling off period or conditions can't be met it's generally 1% of purchase price or $100 whichever is greater, you shouldn't have to forfeit $5k because you couldn't get finance, but it also should have stopped there, either he was pushing you for the sale or you overcommited yourself because you wanted it too badly.....

Jaw
12-11-2012, 03:12 PM
Yeah It was a little bit of both really.. He was VERY pushy, but at the same time, I shouldn't of let myself been pressured either in reality.. Which would have been fine ifmI didnt have to go home I suppose, but ho hum. The real kick is that it cost me big in fees to release the funds early from a fixed term investment. My own worst enemy, me!

Sookie
12-11-2012, 03:12 PM
Emails correspondence is not considered legally binding in regards to contract law. You are in the clear as long as you did not sign another yellow contract to buy a vehicle with the paper filled in 'with cash'.

Sarbear
12-11-2012, 03:14 PM
Emails correspondence is not considered legally binding in regards to contract law. You are in the clear as long as you did not sign another yellow contract to buy a vehicle with the paper filled in 'with cash'.

can you please stop talking.

Desmo
12-11-2012, 03:14 PM
Emails correspondence is not considered legally binding in regards to contract law.

You sure about that?

BrettH
12-11-2012, 03:16 PM
Has the car sold? as said by others, if he's sold the car he was holding for you without notifying you, you may be in a position to get your deposit back. If it hasn't sold yet, find the extra money you need to buy the car you obviously wanted badly in the first place? :D

Jaw
12-11-2012, 03:19 PM
Yup car is long gone now! This has been going on for months, back in the country now that dads a bit better, so will have to go in in person.. Just want to know the full picture before I do (and if I can sort,it out without going in, even better!)

Sookie
12-11-2012, 03:26 PM
You sure about that?

Actually I'm wrong. If you sent it via email and it is in reference to the original contract you have signed (you are sending to him and he has accepted as a variation to the contract) I believe you will not be able to get your deposit back.

Australian Contract Law | Julie Clarke (http://www.australiancontractlaw.com/law/formation-agreement.html)

Desmo The only time emails do not count is in Australian Contract Law (Minor/Major Works, Construction Projects where schedules and conditions and annexures are made...).. Whoops.

I was working on a project for woodside and I had a 180,000 variation to a pipeline. I had an email from the construction manager of the site stating proceed with the works and take this as authority. 4 weeks and 180,000 later, they never issued a purchased order or contract variation. Contract administrator for woodside in other words basically said thanks for the free work we won't be paying. I threatened legal action and he stated to me that an email is not authority, referenced me an australian standard and that the construction manager had no authority to execute anything with this contract..only site instructions (which was basically out of his blank cheque budget)... that was my lesson learned and why I stated email correspondance does not count... back in the real world with simple purchase/sell/buy they do :)

chew
12-11-2012, 03:27 PM
Always front up in person and politely ask for their side of the story and offer yours, record it if possible, then check all your paperwork and go to consumer affairs.

n.b.
1) You can record a conversation if it is yours.
2) Dont lose your cool.
3) If they have documents you dont, get copies.

Desmo
12-11-2012, 03:29 PM
Yup car is long gone now! This has been going on for months, back in the country now that dads a bit better, so will have to go in in person.. Just want to know the full picture before I do (and if I can sort,it out without going in, even better!)

So he waited the 3 weeks and then sold it?

Kaido
12-11-2012, 03:59 PM
So he waited the 3 weeks and then sold it?


Not sure if just trolling... or just skim read.

From what i see he pay deposit... then constantly try to get in-contact with the dealer but had to be overseas due to things out of his control... dealer did not return email or get back in-contact with him. Don't see how he can be blame for that?

Jaw
12-11-2012, 04:03 PM
So he waited the 3 weeks and then sold it?


Couldnt tell you when, all I know is that its sold now..



Actually I'm wrong. If you sent it via email and it is in reference to the original contract you have signed (you are sending to him and he has accepted as a variation to the contract) I believe you will not be able to get your deposit back.

Australian Contract Law | Julie Clarke (http://www.australiancontractlaw.com/law/formation-agreement.html)

Desmo The only time emails do not count is in Australian Contract Law (Minor/Major Works, Construction Projects where schedules and conditions and annexures are made...).. Whoops.

I was working on a project for woodside and I had a 180,000 variation to a pipeline. I had an email from the construction manager of the site stating proceed with the works and take this as authority. 4 weeks and 180,000 later, they never issued a purchased order or contract variation. Contract administrator for woodside in other words basically said thanks for the free work we won't be paying. I threatened legal action and he stated to me that an email is not authority, referenced me an australian standard and that the construction manager had no authority to execute anything with this contract..only site instructions (which was basically out of his blank cheque budget)... that was my lesson learned and why I stated email correspondance does not count... back in the real world with simple purchase/sell/buy they do :)

Yeah different story, no si nowork :lol:. Thats where its still very gray though, my email doesnt say anything altering the contract, other than basically "its taken a bit longer than hoped, pursuant to the contract, deposit."


Always front up in person and politely ask for their side of the story and offer yours, record it if possible, then check all your paperwork and go to consumer affairs.

n.b.
1) You can record a conversation if it is yours.
2) Dont lose your cool.
3) If they have documents you dont, get copies.

Sound advice. Now that im back i will deffo be rocking up.. Just the fact that he hasnt bothered to call, answer or reply just doesnt tell me it's gonna be productive. Matter of fact, it's going to be several weeks before I can get in, I think I'm going to write to the business manager To let him know whats going on as a starter..

Thanks again for all the replies, sorry if Im going on butnwriting it out helps me sort it out in my own mind :)

Rich...
12-11-2012, 04:06 PM
Do you have a receipt for the $5000?

I'm a little confused...

You sign contract subject to finace approval. You can't get that approval, but you get approval for a smaller value. You give the car dealer $5000 and say keep it for 3 weeks for me. You then wait how long before contacting him again?

Desmo
12-11-2012, 04:06 PM
Not sure if just trolling... or just skim read.


Couldnt tell you when, all I know is that its sold now..


Thank you.

BrettH
12-11-2012, 04:06 PM
so how many months have passed since you put down 5k to hold the car for 3 weeks? including the next several weeks before you'll go see the dealer?

if it was my 5k id be moving things along alot faster..

B0RDEX
12-11-2012, 04:07 PM
Thanks again for all the replies, sorry if Im going on butnwriting it out helps me sort it out in my own mind :)

79270

Here you are, dear.

:lol:

Sookie
12-11-2012, 04:10 PM
79270

Here you are, dear.

:lol:
LOL You are learning the internets well my child :diablo:

Desmo
12-11-2012, 04:11 PM
LOL You are learning the internets well my child :diablo:

Unfortunately, you have not.

fincl
12-11-2012, 04:39 PM
I don't know much about the new ACL as i have not had anything to do with it yet but there have been some changes to the legal landscape in regards to hardship provisions. Your best bet would be to book an appointment with a community legal centre. You may be able to request a refund due to your change in personal circumstances or pay the dealers 'costs' in selling the vehicle (e.g a few hundred in advertising etc.)

Jaw
12-11-2012, 04:45 PM
Another polite email fired off as a reminder and I just got back ' sorry mate will get ontothatfor you now'

Will see what turns out..

Jaw
12-11-2012, 04:46 PM
79270

Here you are, dear.

:lol:

Haha cheers. Now just need to find me some cocoa..

Jaw
12-11-2012, 04:55 PM
....

Hewie
12-11-2012, 07:14 PM
Actually I'm wrong. If you sent it via email and it is in reference to the original contract you have signed (you are sending to him and he has accepted as a variation to the contract) I believe you will not be able to get your deposit back.

Australian Contract Law | Julie Clarke (http://www.australiancontractlaw.com/law/formation-agreement.html)

Desmo (http://www.perthstreetbikes.com/forum/member.php?u=7104) The only time emails do not count is in Australian Contract Law (Minor/Major Works, Construction Projects where schedules and conditions and annexures are made...).. Whoops.

I was working on a project for woodside and I had a 180,000 variation to a pipeline. I had an email from the construction manager of the site stating proceed with the works and take this as authority. 4 weeks and 180,000 later, they never issued a purchased order or contract variation. Contract administrator for woodside in other words basically said thanks for the free work we won't be paying. I threatened legal action and he stated to me that an email is not authority, referenced me an australian standard and that the construction manager had no authority to execute anything with this contract..only site instructions (which was basically out of his blank cheque budget)... that was my lesson learned and why I stated email correspondance does not count... back in the real world with simple purchase/sell/buy they do :)

And you accepted that and moved on leaving 180k on the table ?

Sookie
12-11-2012, 07:30 PM
And you accepted that and moved on leaving 180k on the table ?

Lesson learnt. We lost on that part of the contract but screwed them on another... this was part of my learning when I was still very very green :) the MD was not very happy however :D

Hewie
12-11-2012, 07:46 PM
Lesson learnt. We lost on that part of the contract but screwed them on another... this was part of my learning when I was still very very green :) the MD was not very happy however :D

What lesson was learnt ?

The person that owed you money, sent you an AS saying that the email wasnt authority and that they wouldnt pay ? Thats not a lesson in contract law ... thats a lesson on how to bullshit your way out of a bill.

Sookie
12-11-2012, 08:30 PM
What lesson was learnt ?

The person that owed you money, sent you an AS saying that the email wasnt authority and that they wouldnt pay ? Thats not a lesson in contract law ... thats a lesson on how to bullshit your way out of a bill.

No it's a lesson that I should not of taken an email from a person I assumed had authority as evidence of works to proceed :)

Hewie
12-11-2012, 08:41 PM
No it's a lesson that I should not of taken an email from a person I assumed had authority as evidence of works to proceed :)

Out of curiosity did you get legal advice on the matter ? or did you take it on face value that they didnt have to pay based on the material sent to you by the other party ?

There is nothing wrong with an email as authority to commence works and depending on a couple of factors there is nothing wrong with assuming a person has authority to commence either.

There are a number of defenses for just this type of event.

Brougham
12-11-2012, 08:47 PM
Sookie - you got ripped. Emails from your client instructing you to proceed can and are used as legally binding directions. I haz experience with this in the construction industry.

andymac
12-11-2012, 09:12 PM
Lesson learnt. We lost on that part of the contract but screwed them on another... this was part of my learning when I was still very very green :) the MD was not very happy however :D

I hope nobody on here works for Woodside ...

Phildo
12-11-2012, 09:32 PM
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii2/PhilMeUpBaby/PSB/Posting_Dumb_Shit_On_PSB.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii2/PhilMeUpBaby/PSB/Call_Dept_Commerce.jpg

Call the Department of Commerce. Live operators are standing by to take your call! Well, they will be during business hours.

Business stuff is what they deal with. They know the law about deposits on cars, and they'll know it a shitload better than a bunch of amateur lawyer wannabes on a motorbike forum.

Phildo
12-11-2012, 09:34 PM
What lesson was learnt ?
That they shouldn't have hired Sookie?

Hewie
13-11-2012, 06:06 AM
They know the law about deposits on cars, and they'll know it a shitload better than a bunch of amateur lawyer wannabes on a motorbike forum.

They'll know a bit more than those that use google to supply the basics of contract law.

filbert
13-11-2012, 06:24 AM
They'll know a bit more than those that use google to supply the basics of contract law.

I don't use google until I'm wrong :lol: life is a learning curve :) and I definitely don't want to be a lawyer I can't even spell ultracrepidarian.

Hewie
13-11-2012, 06:44 AM
I don't use google until I'm wrong :lol: life is a learning curve :) and I definitely don't want to be a lawyer I can't even spell ultracrepidarian.

Doesn't google negate the existance of ultracrepidarians ?

filbert
13-11-2012, 07:20 AM
Doesn't google negate the existance of ultracrepidarians ?

I would have thought it would increase it, I'm quite often wrong usually because misinformation stuck with me when I learned it, but sometimes misunderstanding and if it looks like I am wrong rather than argue unnecessarily then I turn to google to learn and sometimes the person proving me wrong also had it wrong, but I only give opinions or criticisms based upon personal experience or acquired knowledge and am open to correction.

These days anyone can develop an opinion on something they couldn't even spell yesterday after a few minutes on google, without knowing the intricacies, loopholes and regulations involved they treat what is sometimes a biased opinion piece or facts out of context as the only answer, which as you know is a defining characteristic of those practising ultracrepidarianism. :)

Hewie
13-11-2012, 07:54 AM
I would have thought it would increase it, I'm quite often wrong usually because misinformation stuck with me when I learned it, but sometimes misunderstanding and if it looks like I am wrong rather than argue unnecessarily then I turn to google to learn and sometimes the person proving me wrong also had it wrong, but I only give opinions or criticisms based upon personal experience or acquired knowledge and am open to correction.

These days anyone can develop an opinion on something they couldn't even spell yesterday after a few minutes on google, without knowing the intricacies, loopholes and regulations involved they treat what is sometimes a biased opinion piece or facts out of context as the only answer, which as you know is a defining characteristic of those practising ultracrepidarianism. :)

Interesting.

I suppose I was considering an extension of your second point, if everyone can become an 'expert' in a field simply by the use of google then there is actually no need to develop a true or factual understanding of material/concepts etc.

Thus everyone is an expert on everything and as such nothing is out of anyone's field of knowledge or expertise, hence the existance of google removes the fundamental tenet of ultracrepidarianism.

Discuss :D

Captain Starfish
13-11-2012, 08:13 AM
I suspect we've discussed something similar recently, dragging a Skut thread off in a different direction.

Look how easy it has become over the last 15 years to access information - usually pretty reliable - on all but the most esoteric fields.

This growth hasn't slowed, it is starting to change direction. The filtering and winnowing of results is getting better and tailored to people now, but more info is still getting there.

Human hive mind. It's coming. Everyone* an expert on everything as soon as they think of the topic. It's going to be a pretty amazing period in the evolution of Homo sapiens. What will be interesting to see is how many people still push the boundaries of the body of knowledge, as opposed to just consuming it. Will society's knowledge grow exponentially as the bootstrap foundation of info becomes easier to access, or will it stagnate and collapse as laziness takes over? :)

filbert
13-11-2012, 08:23 AM
Interesting.

I suppose I was considering an extension of your second point, if everyone can become an 'expert' in a field simply by the use of google then there is actually no need to develop a true or factual understanding of material/concepts etc.

Thus everyone is an expert on everything and as such nothing is out of anyone's field of knowledge or expertise, hence the existance of google removes the fundamental tenet of ultracrepidarianism.

Discuss :D

It's a valid interpretation that I hadn't previously considered due to my opinion that time, study and experience are more valuable to accumulation of knowledge and real world understanding pertaining to the genuine label of "expert" than reiterating partially digested reference material in bullet point form as an armchair expert would.

I share what I know, or think I know more for the sake of learning than being right or educating others, that of course doesn't mean that I don't argue a point :lol:

So I guess I disagree on principle based purely on the ambiguous interpretations available for the term "expert" and what one would consider knowledge :)

Sookie
13-11-2012, 08:41 AM
dafaq am i reading

Hewie
13-11-2012, 08:48 AM
I suspect we've discussed something similar recently, dragging a Skut thread off in a different direction.

Look how easy it has become over the last 15 years to access information - usually pretty reliable - on all but the most esoteric fields.

This growth hasn't slowed, it is starting to change direction. The filtering and winnowing of results is getting better and tailored to people now, but more info is still getting there.

But that raises a point, access to information is one thing, but the interpretation and application of that information is another, quite separate aspect.

A good example is the nuances of contract law being discussed above .... I agree that all the general rules of contract law are available online in numerous sources, but the skill and requisite understanding to review, interpret and apply these rules is not something that is as easily translatable.

shmoo
13-11-2012, 08:50 AM
it amazes me that people would try to conduct these sorts of dealings via email. just too much can get misconstrued. there is a reason there are standard contracts for buying motor vehicles. stick to using them.

Hewie
13-11-2012, 08:55 AM
dafaq am i reading

Which bit dont you understand ?

Hewie
13-11-2012, 09:00 AM
.... "that time, study and experience are more valuable to accumulation of knowledge and real world understanding pertaining to the genuine label of "expert" than reiterating partially digested reference material in bullet point form as an armchair expert would"

I agree and this ties into my previous point (in reply to CS).

These are the tools which, generally speaking allow people to correctly interpret and apply information.

As opposed to linking random web pages that may (or may not) have any relevance to the actual topic or issue. :D

filbert
13-11-2012, 09:11 AM
Human hive mind. It's coming. Everyone* an expert on everything as soon as they think of the topic. It's going to be a pretty amazing period in the evolution of Homo sapiens. What will be interesting to see is how many people still push the boundaries of the body of knowledge, as opposed to just consuming it. Will society's knowledge grow exponentially as the bootstrap foundation of info becomes easier to access, or will it stagnate and collapse as laziness takes over? :)

It's an exciting concept for those with a thirst for knowledge, but I see it as a possible downfall of society. Instead of "I don't think I know, I'll check wikipedia" the reality will be "I don't think, I know. I saw it on wikipedia"


But that raises a point, access to information is one thing, but the interpretation and application of that information is another, quite separate aspect.

A good example is the nuances of contract law being discussed above .... I agree that all the general rules of contract law are available online in numerous sources, but the skill and requisite understanding to review, interpret and apply these rules is not something that is as easily translatable.

And those skills and requisite understandings can see a guilty man walk free from a courtroom.

Hewie
13-11-2012, 09:12 AM
And those skills and requisite understandings can see a guilty man walk free from a courtroom.

or lack thereof, loose 180k

andymac
13-11-2012, 10:40 AM
dafaq am i reading

Was this a response from Woodside?

Sookie
13-11-2012, 11:10 AM
I was sharing an experience and something I live by now.

Argue all you like, it happened whatever you think.

If you think I didn't argue, didn't get a construction lawyer or my seven thousand bosses involved then you are stupider than me.

shan
13-11-2012, 11:17 AM
But that raises a point, access to information is one thing, but the interpretation and application of that information is another, quite separate aspect.

A good example is the nuances of contract law being discussed above .... I agree that all the general rules of contract law are available online in numerous sources, but the skill and requisite understanding to review, interpret and apply these rules is not something that is as easily translatable.
Firstly i had to look up ultracrepidarianism. , i canot even say it correctly FFS
Interesting word, more a sentance,
I agree with your point, this word / sentance is coming into its own in modern times just as the thumb is for text comunication.

Your point above, comprhension of said topics , in this case law.
Lawers are up there with politicans (the ones i have had to deal with) in the way words can be misquoted on purpose, scewed twisted to the harts content.
alot of law, is interpratation of a sentance or paragraph, unless it is written with no room for misinterpratation then its game on.

Here is the problem at its core, people are herded into signing a contract, sometimes faire , often not so faire.
With time being a precious thing to all, often contracts are taken with a verbal trust from some sales person so slippery your eyes just slid on past the pricks
Or people skim read, even read well and fully with out full comprahension of whats written in long jibberish well designed crap that puts normal minds to sleep.

With peoples ultracrepidarianism tendancies,as with all things forum related, pinch of salt, learn the art of filtering.
Sometimes the simplest ideas are the golden thoughts, or seeds or a good line of thought.
My 5c

B0RDEX
13-11-2012, 11:20 AM
then you are stupider than me

stupider

stupider

stupider

Rich...
13-11-2012, 11:40 AM
...then you are stupider than me.

Whoa...

Lets keep the debate sensible...

shan
13-11-2012, 11:49 AM
Whoa...

Lets keep the debate sensible...
he did make a faire point though, $180,000 will get chased up.

filbert
13-11-2012, 11:53 AM
Firstly i had to look up ultracrepidarianism. , i canot even say it correctly FFS
Interesting word, more a sentance,
I agree with your point, this word / sentance is coming into its own in modern times just as the thumb is for text comunication.

Your point above, comprhension of said topics , in this case law.
Lawers are up there with politicans (the ones i have had to deal with) in the way words can be misquoted on purpose, scewed twisted to the harts content.
alot of law, is interpratation of a sentance or paragraph, unless it is written with no room for misinterpratation then its game on.

Here is the problem at its core, people are herded into signing a contract, sometimes faire , often not so faire.
With time being a precious thing to all, often contracts are taken with a verbal trust from some sales person so slippery your eyes just slid on past the pricks
Or people skim read, even read well and fully with out full comprahension of whats written in long jibberish well designed crap that puts normal minds to sleep.

With peoples ultracrepidarianism tendancies,as with all things forum related, pinch of salt, learn the art of filtering.
Sometimes the simplest ideas are the golden thoughts, or seeds or a good line of thought.
My 5c

It's a big word I admit Shan, but in no way intended to be condescending to anyone of a median vocabulary, I didn't have to look it up as I learned about it at the same time as antidisestablishmentarisnism and it stuck :lol:

I used it to make a point and I think most would have gotten it straight away when they had to look it up :)

I know something you don't know and it's sure as a bear shits in the woods you know something that I don't know and both of us probably know something that a lawyer doesn't, but neither of us are experts.

We can both look it up and feel that we have equal understanding but as hewie proved we can still add a bias to the interpretation.

We're sharing experiences and opinions even arguing them but in the end we have to bow to superior knowledge and experience no matter what the page we just googled says, the likes of Sventek for psychology, fincl for law interpretation, sarbear for contract law, dubs for info on workplace rights among many others share their knowledge, which could and in most cases should be considered expert or at the very least well informed and point you in the right direction, but even then their response may be skewed by the limited information that is provided on the forum, the internet is no replacement for a personalised professional response with all facts considered.

I guess the real answer to this conundrum we've allowed ourselves to become entangled in is for people to stop asking questions of laymen when they need a personalised professional response because you can bet your balls someone is going to want to help and offer advice, even if it's just through wanting to appear equally as clever as the one who posted above them :lol:

Commander Keen
13-11-2012, 11:56 AM
or lack thereof, loose 180k

Then they've just doubled their investment in him.

Wasn't he boasting that he was getting paid about that much?

Hewie
13-11-2012, 12:01 PM
I was sharing an experience and something I live by now.

Argue all you like, it happened whatever you think.

If you think I didn't argue, didn't get a construction lawyer or my seven thousand bosses involved then you are stupider than me.

No no, this isnít an argument .... this is a discussion, a polite and interesting conversation.

I asked you if you got advice on the matter as I am genuinely interested in what that advice actually was, as opposed to what is being presented here in this discussion and I never once suggested it didnít happen.

As for being stupider than you, that is certainly one possibility, I have not met you in person nor have we compared IQ test scores.

We have merely exchanged polite and interesting conversation pieces on a forum.

I have enjoyed this discussion and I look forward to its continuation in due course.

Desmo
13-11-2012, 12:03 PM
We digress.
Man agreed to buy car under certain terms.
Terms weren't met (finance) then man agrees to another set of terms he can meet (finance+cash) and lays down a deposit to secure the deal.
Man doesn't then fulfill the agreed terms and loses his deposit.
Am I missing something here?

filbert
13-11-2012, 12:20 PM
We digress.
Man agreed to buy car under certain terms.
Terms weren't met (finance) then man agrees to another set of terms he can meet (finance+cash) and lays down a deposit to secure the deal.
Man doesn't then fulfill the agreed terms and loses his deposit.
Am I missing something here?

Yes Jim you're missing all the fun...

perfect opportunity to politely take the piss :) sometimes digression is more interesting than progression :lol:

Yeah you summed it up, he had an out clause and waived it by modifying the terms which he didn't meet, I sincerely hope he gets either all or most of his money back or an alternative contract on another vehicle as an act of good faith, but he has most definitely put himself in a difficult position as the law stands unless personalised professional advice finds him a loophole that their side can't close....

Phildo
13-11-2012, 12:30 PM
dafaq am i reading
The adults are talking.

Dragunov-21
13-11-2012, 12:37 PM
But that raises a point, access to information is one thing, but the interpretation and application of that information is another, quite separate aspect.

Exactly. Fact-finding gives you knowledge, not understanding, and to link concepts and facts together and create something new requires understanding.

Hewie
13-11-2012, 12:44 PM
Your point above, comprhension of said topics , in this case law.
Lawers are up there with politicans (the ones i have had to deal with) in the way words can be misquoted on purpose, scewed twisted to the harts content.
alot of law, is interpratation of a sentance or paragraph, unless it is written with no room for misinterpratation then its game on.

Here is the problem at its core, people are herded into signing a contract, sometimes faire , often not so faire.
With time being a precious thing to all, often contracts are taken with a verbal trust from some sales person so slippery your eyes just slid on past the pricks
Or people skim read, even read well and fully with out full comprahension of whats written in long jibberish well designed crap that puts normal minds to sleep.

With peoples ultracrepidarianism tendancies,as with all things forum related, pinch of salt, learn the art of filtering.
Sometimes the simplest ideas are the golden thoughts, or seeds or a good line of thought.
My 5c

Your point is very valid, many Lawyers take great enjoyment in the use of language and can turn a simple word so it has an abundance of meanings.

However, here Ive been referring to the broader doctrines that sit outside the simple idea of offer and acceptance. These are not as granular as words ... they are whole concepts that then turn on the specific words of the contract in question.

Munkers
13-11-2012, 12:47 PM
ultracrepidarian. I had one of these once, it was great until the wheel fell off, seemingly, since they started to manufacture them in China, they are no longer screwed, just a piss poor rivet.

Desmo
13-11-2012, 12:56 PM
an alternative contract on another vehicle as an act of good faith

This to me would be acceptable.
Sorry for railing the thread, back to the piss pulling.

shan
13-11-2012, 01:12 PM
Your point is very valid, many Lawyers take great enjoyment in the use of language and can turn a simple word so it has an abundance of meanings.

However, here Ive been referring to the broader doctrines that sit outside the simple idea of offer and acceptance. These are not as granular as words ... they are whole concepts that then turn on the specific words of the contract in question.
You enlightend me a bit there,
Its key words to look for, I tend to get hypnotized a bit by bla bla bla endless blars,
To look for , lern specific words that will form the pillers so to speek. Then take in the paragraph arround the main point.

My self I do this a bit already, but its good to have it spelled out (pun intended)

Also my previous post was intended as some what to play with the ultracrepidarianism word/ sentance/ concepte and the fact I must google the word to comprhend it, then give my ultracrepidarian (?) 5c ,ironic what.

RRossi
13-11-2012, 01:54 PM
We digress.
Man agreed to buy car under certain terms.
Terms weren't met (finance) then man agrees to another set of terms he can meet (finance+cash) and lays down a deposit to secure the deal.
Man doesn't then fulfill the agreed terms and loses his deposit.
Am I missing something here?


+1 100% Black and White



forgetting all the personal stuff.


silly thing is you had a chance to get out of it but didint.


Sorry for your loss and the sickness in your family but move on or just keep pestering them til they give in, there your two only options.


RR

marklh
13-11-2012, 02:12 PM
$5k is a very big deposit for a car ! .. too late now though I think

Desmo
13-11-2012, 02:12 PM
Ten percent deposit probably?

Dr. Venkman
13-11-2012, 06:02 PM
Ten percent deposit probably?

Sounds about right to me.

The deposit was done via bank transfer, so there is a paper trail, Jaw did you put a description as to what the deposit was for?

The MTAA would be interested to hear about this also, as a last resort (if small claims tribunal and docep get you nowhere) if they are a reputable dealer, then they would be careful to avoid any bad press from certain Channel 7 or 9 based programs that air around 1830 Monday to Friday

mystery
13-11-2012, 09:07 PM
You mean those shows that the dregs of society watch, and believe every minute of?

BenG
13-11-2012, 09:44 PM
as a last resort (if small claims tribunal and docep get you nowhere) if they are a reputable dealer, then they would be careful to avoid any bad press from certain Channel 7 or 9 based programs that air around 1830 Monday to Friday

So you mean, once the appropriate government agencies and the courts confirm that the dealer did nothing wrong, attempt to destroy his livelihood out of sheer spite?

Dr. Venkman
13-11-2012, 10:14 PM
So you mean, once the appropriate government agencies and the courts confirm that the dealer did nothing wrong, attempt to destroy his livelihood out of sheer spite?

The start of the quote you used is the point, if he's gone the legal route and is entitled to get his money back and doesn't, then he can contact the media

Desmo
13-11-2012, 10:16 PM
I don't think the legalities are in question here. See my previous posts.