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View Full Version : "The tunnel" Shunt Car.



Sookie
21-11-2012, 04:52 PM
Shunting vehicle to ease tunnel congestion | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/shunting-vehicle-to-ease-tunnel-congestion/story-e6frg13u-1226520347900)

Are you kidding me?

79631

speed3
21-11-2012, 04:55 PM
Car breaks down and this pushes it out of the way, simple idea and the fastest way to clear the obstruction.

If your car got damaged as a result you could claim the damages, what's your problem with it?

P.J
21-11-2012, 04:58 PM
Car would need to be able to be started? Power steering, brakes, what about if it was an auto trans car?

filbert
21-11-2012, 05:00 PM
New Zealand cops shunt cars off the road with cop cars, it beats them sitting in the way of traffic like they do here, or being parked half on the road, damage is minimal to none they don't hit at 60 or push at speed, they just idle up to make contact and push just above walking pace.

speed3
21-11-2012, 05:02 PM
Can still put an auto in neutral.

The tunnel is pretty straight so limited non power steering would still work and you'd probably only be getting pushed at a few km/h.

Commander Keen
21-11-2012, 05:24 PM
Yep, sounds like a decent enough idea to me. It will probably cost us $200,000 a year to operate though.

As long as they don't try to shunt a bike.

shan
21-11-2012, 05:29 PM
Great idea, underground you just ram the fuckers and push them out the way. Ute to ute, sparks twisted metal, clear the way.
A soft push pad will be pritty harmless, Also adds a huge safty aspect.

Nine
21-11-2012, 05:43 PM
I can see news headlines of a bunch of drunk bogans from the paramount hotwiring it and going on a rampage.

TurboR1
21-11-2012, 05:48 PM
Need to get the thing to clear nice twisty roads ahead of a ride, put some brushes on the bottom to sweep the street at the same time... Brilliant.

Rich...
21-11-2012, 06:02 PM
I believe they have been using the same idea in QLD for a while...

GsxInShed
21-11-2012, 06:06 PM
Just add solid fuel rocket pack....
I think they are called J's
Light blue torch paper and stand well back,
video or it dint happen...




Fuck broken down cars'/ex girlfreind's/mates wives/dogs' that fucken bark all night/neighbours who have days off when I don't......
Mmmm J's could be the answer to a lot of stoppages...might just look into that... bust the myth..!
feel free to add shit that pisses you off........h & K's

deeman111
21-11-2012, 06:09 PM
maybe they could use it on the freeways too. When a car crashes or breaks down they push it up the next available off ramp so everyone else doesnt slow down to 30km/h to have a look

TurboR1
21-11-2012, 06:31 PM
I've seen many car drivers apply the same theory of this machine to motorcyclists... they're so kind that they don't even wait for the motorcyclist to have broken down or even stopped for that matter.

bobinatcat
21-11-2012, 06:35 PM
Why not just tow. Shunting ain't gonna work through the curves...plus it's an Outlander...

Shady7/8
21-11-2012, 06:36 PM
Car would need to be able to be started? Power steering, brakes, what about if it was an auto trans car?

Are you serious? Please tell me you're not mechanically minded, then I can excuse :)

So long as the key is in the ignition, steering turns. Sure you might have to work those weedy arms a bit, but you can steer, same with the brakes. Also as mentioned, auto trannies can be put on Neutral... who'd a thunk that?


Can't believe it's taken this long!

BenG
21-11-2012, 06:37 PM
Why not just tow. Shunting ain't gonna work through the curves...plus it's an Outlander...

Sure it'll work - the car driver just needs to steer.

Towing requires getting out and hooking up a rope, which is dangerous given there is nowhere real safe to jump out of a tow truck in there...

Skut
21-11-2012, 06:47 PM
Are you serious? Please tell me you're not mechanically minded, then I can excuse :)

So long as the key is in the ignition, steering turns. Sure you might have to work those weedy arms a bit, but you can steer, same with the brakes. Also as mentioned, auto trannies can be put on Neutral... who'd a thunk that?


Can't believe it's taken this long!

Unless of course it's a 70s circa Citroen ;) I used to have an old CX2400, and if the engine failed you only had a short time before the residual pressure in the hydropneumatic spheres dropped and you had NO steering and NO brakes and the wheels would be scraping the arches.

A plus was that it could never be wheel-clamped though!

filbert
21-11-2012, 06:48 PM
we're not just behind on implementation apparently.....

Old frt
21-11-2012, 06:58 PM
Pfft, I was driving one of those things long before I had a license.

We called them Dodgems.

filbert
21-11-2012, 07:04 PM
Pfft, I was driving one of those things long before I had a license.

We called them Dodgems.

all it needs is the pole out the top with the wire and electrify the roof of the tunnel :) why wait for them to break down just hit anything that slows down :lol:

Roger Explosion
21-11-2012, 07:04 PM
The driver of this vehicle needs to be wearing an eye patch.

Sonik
21-11-2012, 07:24 PM
Why not just tow. Shunting ain't gonna work through the curves...plus it's an Outlander...


Having a long life expectancy
Walking around on the freeway

Pick one.

Para045
22-11-2012, 05:28 AM
Are you serious? Please tell me you're not mechanically minded, then I can excuse :)

So long as the key is in the ignition, steering turns. Sure you might have to work those weedy arms a bit, but you can steer, same with the brakes. Also as mentioned, auto trannies can be put on Neutral... who'd a thunk that?


Can't believe it's taken this long!

That's the whole thing, it requires the driver to actually be in the car and be able to remove the steering lock and place in neutral :huh: Plus I can see issues if they turn up and want to push your car while you are waiting for the RAC to turn up, :confused: Also it doesn't look likeit'll work for most 4WD's as it's too low for the bumper :unsure:

TurboR1
22-11-2012, 06:31 AM
I wonder if the fleet will employ the use of soccer mums as drivers... should come naturally and they won't require any training.

chew
22-11-2012, 06:53 AM
The fun bit will be when the shunted car has a crash due to running out of power assisted brakes and hits someone else.

Emergency brake can be deployed but if it does happen who is liable?

What are they calling the shunter (pipe cleaner)? Laxative?

Spina
22-11-2012, 07:01 AM
Great idea, underground you just ram the fuckers and push them out the way. Ute to ute, sparks twisted metal, clear the way.
A soft push pad will be pritty harmless, Also adds a huge safty aspect.

C'mon Shan tell the truth.....racing side by side up the decline to 'shunt' the opponent isn't the same...lol

waikiki
22-11-2012, 07:32 AM
They need these everywhere, mind you I think there already is. They are just undercover versions, like TurboR1 said, "the soccer mums". The amount of times I have seen someone has broken down (car then driver !) and just sit there without any attempt to try and move it, even when others try to assist (when safe to do so). Looks expensive anyway, why not use an old landy with a couple of tyres tied to the front. :lol:

Flyboy
22-11-2012, 07:40 AM
The fun bit will be when the shunted car has a crash due to running out of power assisted brakes and hits someone else.


At the speed the vehicle would be travelling, the handbrake would pull you up pretty quick I reckon.

Shady7/8
22-11-2012, 08:09 AM
That's the whole thing, it requires the driver to actually be in the car and be able to remove the steering lock and place in neutral :huh: Plus I can see issues if they turn up and want to push your car while you are waiting for the RAC to turn up, :confused: Also it doesn't look likeit'll work for most 4WD's as it's too low for the bumper :unsure:
They're patrolling the tunnel only... Won't take long to get to the car, and they can't shunt without a driver inside.
RAC will know that the shunt is in place, and if not in the tunnel will be at the exit from tunnel.



The fun bit will be when the shunted car has a crash due to running out of power assisted brakes and hits someone else.

Emergency brake can be deployed but if it does happen who is liable?

What are they calling the shunter (pipe cleaner)? Laxative?

What happens when power assisted brakes go? You guys remember they days before power assisted brakes right? You just pushed your foot down and the car stopped? Well nothings changed.


Let's use some common sense here. They won't shunt without a person at the wheel of the broken down car. A car operates perfectly fine with no power for manoeuvring, albeit heavy on the steering and brakes.

Spock
22-11-2012, 08:09 AM
Shunting vehicle to ease tunnel congestion | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/shunting-vehicle-to-ease-tunnel-congestion/story-e6frg13u-1226520347900)
79631
This will work with the current lane arrangment, but not if they remove the emergency lane like they're planning to (to turn it into an extra lane).

Corona 122
22-11-2012, 08:44 AM
This will work with the current lane arrangment, but not if they remove the emergency lane like they're planning to (to turn it into an extra lane).

Why wouldn't it??? Many tunnels I have driven through over east do not have an emergency lane or only a small pull in alcove. Yea it will back up the traffic for the 5 minutes its doing its job ( with the red crosses on the roof of the tunnel on to warn following boneheads ) but better than having a stationary obstacle with some hysterical idiot running around it there for a couple of hours.

Not sure if the extra lane will ease congestion much though. Just more opportunity for people to fuck it up!!! Fingers crossed if they do it the merge points at both ends are set up into their own lane and not still a merge point.

Spock
22-11-2012, 08:50 AM
Why wouldn't it???
If the broken down car in mid-way through the tunnel, how will the shunt car get to it without an emergency lane? Maybe they need a shunt motorcycle to lane split to where the problem is.

Sookie
22-11-2012, 08:52 AM
If the broken down car in mid-way through the tunnel, how will the shunt car get to it without an emergency lane? Maybe they need a shunt motorcycle to lane split to where the problem is.

This is why I originally posted. There are plans of removing E lane but how would they get to it? I take it they will have to go up the wrong side of the road to get to the damage..but then how does the shunt work? A police escorted Tow Truck would be wiser,,,and a shit load cheaper

filbert
22-11-2012, 09:31 AM
This is why I originally posted. There are plans of removing E lane but how would they get to it? I take it they will have to go up the wrong side of the road to get to the damage..but then how does the shunt work? A police escorted Tow Truck would be wiser,,,and a shit load cheaper

So if they open it up to 3 lanes all lanes will be blocked simultaneously by a single breakdown?
Would it not be feasible that they travel down an open lane, put on their beacons while momentarily halting traffic allowing those stuck behind the breakdown to clear before turning the steering wheel in the correct direction to align with the vehicle requiring assistance and then proceed through the tunnel?

Seznid
22-11-2012, 09:33 AM
If there's three lanes going forward. And a car gets stuck in one lane. There's still two lanes free for traffic and they just wait for the shunt car. 5 mins later they're pushed out of the tunnel and all three lanes are free and they can wait for a tow truck.

Benefits:
Nobody has to exit a vehicle in traffic.
It's slow for 5-15 mins while the shunt car gets there and pushes them out of the tunnel - no hour long clusterfucks like the freeway.
They can get a tow/RAC in a safer, open area rather than blocking off the lane for ages in the tunnel.

Sookie
22-11-2012, 09:35 AM
So if they open it up to 3 lanes all lanes will be blocked simultaneously by a single breakdown?
Would it not be feasible that they travel down an open lane, put on their beacons while momentarily halting traffic allowing those stuck behind the breakdown to clear before turning the steering wheel in the correct direction to align with the vehicle requiring assistance and then proceed through the tunnel?

True. However as I'm sure you've noted. 3 Lanes / 2 Lanes with one closing with that stupid arrow and T sign..what ends up happening is it jams up with either eager or scared motorists trying to push their luck by going all the way to the end before trying to change lanes. Being in the tunnel I'm unsure how effective lights and a siren will be..however I'm probably wrong as I've never been in that situation

filbert
22-11-2012, 09:46 AM
True. However as I'm sure you've noted. 3 Lanes / 2 Lanes with one closing with that stupid arrow and T sign..what ends up happening is it jams up with either eager or scared motorists trying to push their luck by going all the way to the end before trying to change lanes. Being in the tunnel I'm unsure how effective lights and a siren will be..however I'm probably wrong as I've never been in that situation

So you're worried over nothing?

devolved
22-11-2012, 10:00 AM
When you were a kid did you not solve the whole issue of traffic accidents by simply asking why cars aren't made like dodgem cars?

This car in a step in that direction.

Desmo
22-11-2012, 10:01 AM
Why not just tow. Shunting ain't gonna work through the curves

You're joking, right?

66
22-11-2012, 10:07 AM
At the speed the vehicle would be travelling, the handbrake would pull you up pretty quick I reckon.

You're not familiar with VE commodores are you.

The hand brake can not be engaged whilst moving. Pull on the leaver and it just clicks and goes free, no brake applied.

Having said that, if you can't stop a car without power brakes, should you be driving (yes, I know how hard you have to push on them)

Spock
22-11-2012, 10:28 AM
If there's three lanes going forward. And a car gets stuck in one lane. There's still two lanes free for traffic and they just wait for the shunt car. 5 mins later they're pushed out of the tunnel and all three lanes are free and they can wait for a tow truck.
Ha ha. You obviously don't use the tunnel in rush hour. Both lanes are bumper to bumper and it's hard for a scooter to get through - let alone a shunt car.

Without an emergency lane a shunt car will be worthless - it probably won't even be able to get into the tunnel. And what if an ambulance has to get through urgently?

Crobbo
22-11-2012, 10:50 AM
Ha ha. You obviously don't use the tunnel in rush hour. Both lanes are bumper to bumper and it's hard for a scooter to get through - let alone a shunt car.

Without an emergency lane a shunt car will be worthless - it probably won't even be able to get into the tunnel. And what if an ambulance has to get through urgently?

Lol and this is different to any other tunnel that gets used in peak hour and has no emergency lanes.

Spock
22-11-2012, 11:12 AM
Lol and this is different to any other tunnel that gets used in peak hour and has no emergency lanes.
In Perth we only have one tunnel and all I can say is it needs an emergency lane in my opinion and experince commuting through it often during rush hour.

It's gridlocked every morning and afternoon and it would be impossible for an emergency vehicle to get within 50m of the entrance during those times without access to a dedicated emergency lane.

Martin1
22-11-2012, 11:34 AM
it's hard for a scooter to get through
What? Come on Spock, you got to try harder on that scooter!

Shady7/8
22-11-2012, 11:49 AM
Lol and this is different to any other tunnel that gets used in peak hour and has no emergency lanes.
Just because all the other lemmings jumped off the cliff, should you?

Maybe the emergency lane we have is better practice than these other tunnels? Maybe they had emergency lanes, then used them for more traffic flow, and now it's too hard to re-instate?

filbert
22-11-2012, 12:08 PM
Nothing is foolproof, the best you can do is make it harder for them....

It should work but I'm sure Perth people will try hard to stop it working.

Spock
22-11-2012, 12:20 PM
Nothing is foolproof, the best you can do is make it harder for them....

It should work but I'm sure Perth people will try hard to stop it working.
The people are not the problem, it's the politicians and town planners who gave us a tunnel that didn't even meet traffic needs on the day it opened let alone have a reserve capacity or upgrade ability to meet future increased demand.

Crobbo
22-11-2012, 01:09 PM
The people are not the problem, it's the politicians and town planners who gave us a tunnel that didn't even meet traffic needs on the day it opened let alone have a reserve capacity or upgrade ability to meet future increased demand.

YES YES YES, a lack of foresight and the mentality of tendering out to he cheapest contractor with clawbacks gives me the shits, but that's just the way it works with relatively short term governments and the level of bureaucracy we have today.

Ideally if I was in government I'd double up on capacity of every new project. There is nothing worse than doing something half arsed the first time. It often costs much more to fix what you've got than it would have to do it properly in the first place.

speed3
22-11-2012, 01:13 PM
Yeah but the second time around it's another governments money and they get to blame their predecessors, amidoinitrite?

Flyboy
22-11-2012, 01:26 PM
You're not familiar with VE commodores are you.

The hand brake can not be engaged whilst moving. Pull on the leaver and it just clicks and goes free, no brake applied.

Having said that, if you can't stop a car without power brakes, should you be driving (yes, I know how hard you have to push on them)

No, i've not driven one, most of my drives have been Fords. However, the majority rule still applies.

Interesting to know though.

Crobbo
22-11-2012, 01:29 PM
*Waits for the political party recruiters to spam your inbox.

Yep, the interview lines will consist mostly of, "the previous governments lack of fiscal control has lead to a blowout of blah blah blah proportions...... blah blah blah budget black hole" followed by some statements that fail to answer questions that have been put to them.

Wait why am I not the PM yet.

Corona 122
22-11-2012, 01:31 PM
Most issues people are likely to encounter in a tunnel all of what 2km long they would be quite capable of safely limping to the end of the tunnel a a slow speed without increased damage to the vehicle.

As for the lack of planning for future capacity Spock I would have thought an emergency lane that can be converted to a 3rd lane when it was required would have qualified as planing for the future as opposed to building a two lane tunnel with no emergency lane.

Perhaps a better approach to minimize some of the concerns of no emergency lane would be to only open the 3rd lane during peak flow periods and have it closed as an emergency lane at all other time. I know understanding a red X on the roof as a closed lane may be a little to much for some Perth natives to understand but it works quite well on a number of bridges around the country to maximize capacity in the primary travel direction as required.

Spock
22-11-2012, 01:52 PM
As for the lack of planning for future capacity Spock I would have thought an emergency lane that can be converted to a 3rd lane when it was required would have qualified as planing for the future as opposed to building a two lane tunnel with no emergency lane.

How about a 4 lane tunnel with an emergency lane? That would have met current peak hour demand and maybe have a little extra for the future.

filbert
22-11-2012, 02:04 PM
How about a 4 lane tunnel with an emergency lane? That would have met current peak hour demand and maybe have a little extra for the future.

You'll never meet Perth peak hour demand until Perth drivers learn how to create a buffer in their following distance, while they continue to sniff each others butts every braking situation will be an emergency braking situation and a chain reaction will leave them bunched up and moving slowly.

then you could even bump the speed limit up and enforce a standard for safe following distances and they can ease off the throttle instead of jumping on the brakes and the car behind can do the same, but it seems that most Perth drivers share a brain cell so I won't hold my breath.

It's always somebody else's fault.

TurboR1
22-11-2012, 02:56 PM
How about a 4 lane tunnel with an emergency lane? That would have met current peak hour demand and maybe have a little extra for the future.

Going to need something wider than that once Riverside Drive is ripped up.

Fuck Perth in the arse with a rusty pitch fork.

Commander Keen
22-11-2012, 03:29 PM
How about a 4 lane tunnel with an emergency lane? That would have met current peak hour demand and maybe have a little extra for the future.

The choke points are still The onramp to freeway north (3 lanes at the tunnel entrance to 1 lane onto the freeway) and Orrong road/Francisco st lights (3 lanes into 2 plus an onramp, speed limit to 70)

Fix the choke points first.

Para045
22-11-2012, 04:32 PM
What happens when power assisted brakes go? You guys remember they days before power assisted brakes right? You just pushed your foot down and the car stopped? Well nothings changed.

I dunno I've driven a few cars that have virtually no brakes when there is no booster and could see a woman having issues with stopping it :huh:



So if they open it up to 3 lanes all lanes will be blocked simultaneously by a single breakdown?
Would it not be feasible that they travel down an open lane, put on their beacons while momentarily halting traffic allowing those stuck behind the breakdown to clear before turning the steering wheel in the correct direction to align with the vehicle requiring assistance and then proceed through the tunnel?


Ha ha. You obviously don't use the tunnel in rush hour. Both lanes are bumper to bumper and it's hard for a scooter to get through - let alone a shunt car.

Without an emergency lane a shunt car will be worthless - it probably won't even be able to get into the tunnel. And what if an ambulance has to get through urgently?

This^^^^ Good luck getting anyone to let the car in and the other cars out if it's in peak hour :o




Yeah but the second time around it's another governments money and they get to blame their predecessors, amidoinitrite?

Exactly :mad:



Going to need something wider than that once Riverside Drive is ripped up.

Fuck Perth in the arse with a rusty pitch fork.

No fucking idea, the tunnel will be an even bigger nightmare and the city will be gridlocked I reckon :o



The choke points are still The onramp to freeway north (3 lanes at the tunnel entrance to 1 lane onto the freeway) and Orrong road/Francisco st lights (3 lanes into 2 plus an onramp, speed limit to 70)

Fix the choke points first.

Don't be silly, that requires some forethought :rolleyes:

chew
22-11-2012, 04:37 PM
Fix the choke points first.

That would require polite and intelligent motorists.


I dunno I've driven a few cars that have virtually no brakes when there is no booster and could see a woman having issues with stopping it :huh:

My point exactly.

The only reason we are getting a "shunt" car is because they are shutting the emergency lane.

I think we have finally found another use for Harleys.

Snatch strap and away you go, cant go fast enough for car to use brakes and loud enough to hear them coming.

Roger Explosion
22-11-2012, 07:57 PM
When these things were first announced almost 12 months ago, they said they were going to be used to remove broken down cars and dickwads parked in clearways on arterials (E.g. Beaufort st) as well. Anyone close to main roads have an update on that? After this evenings clusterfuck caused by some cockwad parking just before Walcott, the sooner the better.

Mckenzie
22-11-2012, 09:00 PM
When these things were first announced almost 12 months ago, they said they were going to be used to remove broken down cars and dickwads parked in clearways on arterials (E.g. Beaufort st) as well. Anyone close to main roads have an update on that? After this evenings clusterfuck caused by some cockwad parking just before Walcott, the sooner the better.

Heh, got caught in that too. Awesome...

timmay
22-11-2012, 09:10 PM
I dunno I've driven a few cars that have virtually no brakes when there is no booster and could see a woman having issues with stopping it :huh::

depends on how fast it is really going? I would imagine less than 5km/h so it still shouldn't present much of an issue even rolling to a stop on the other end.

Para045
22-11-2012, 10:43 PM
depends on how fast it is really going? I would imagine less than 5km/h so it still shouldn't present much of an issue even rolling to a stop on the other end.

Hopefully they wont be going more than a snails pace but I still remember getting towed in my 78 F100 and needing both feet to pull it up from ~40kmh so that I didn't run into the missus towing me :o It would just be worrying as to who would be at fault if it goes wrong and it hits another car or worse a person :confused:

Corona 122
23-11-2012, 07:31 AM
How about a 4 lane tunnel with an emergency lane? That would have met current peak hour demand and maybe have a little extra for the future.

Hate to be blunt Spock but who the hell do you think would stump up the cash for two 25-30m wide tunnels. I'd imagine to make a tunnel that wide structurally sound would be multiple times more expensive than what we have got.

Personally I think it's appropriate that there is some congestion in peak hour. I'd take a punt and say 20-30% of people driving in peak hour would have a realistic public transport option and if they would use it the rest that don't have that option will benefit. Unfortunately most will only bother to change their way of thinking when it becomes all to hard doing it the way they are used to.

Shady7/8
23-11-2012, 08:14 AM
Hopefully they wont be going more than a snails pace but I still remember getting towed in my 78 F100 and needing both feet to pull it up from ~40kmh so that I didn't run into the missus towing me :o It would just be worrying as to who would be at fault if it goes wrong and it hits another car or worse a person :confused:

If a person is running around in the tunnel... well what can they expect?

If you nearly ran up the back of your missus, you should have kept going (just remember lube first). The towed vehicle is the one who owns/controls braking, never the front. How good were your brakes? Fresh and meaty still, or maybe heavily glazed?

timmay
23-11-2012, 08:24 AM
Shunt car was setup and waiting this morning on the eastern end of the tunnel.

Para045
23-11-2012, 08:36 AM
If a person is running around in the tunnel... well what can they expect?

If you nearly ran up the back of your missus, you should have kept going (just remember lube first). The towed vehicle is the one who owns/controls braking, never the front. How good were your brakes? Fresh and meaty still, or maybe heavily glazed?

The brakes were "OK" considering the age and size of the vehicle when the engine was running but once the power was off and no boost it was like there was only one of the rear drums working and they were virtually useless anyway :o Most newer cars with 4 wheel discs are a lot better although my mothers old Hyundai Excel has pretty ordinary brakes at the best of times :( Good thing she hardly ever drives more than a few km and she has a good life insurance policy :lol:

Corona 122
23-11-2012, 08:38 AM
Shunt car was setup and waiting this morning on the eastern end of the tunnel.

It would have to be a god awful boring job!!!

GsxInShed
23-11-2012, 09:03 AM
''Shunt Car driver's-We'll be there when you need us"

Brought to you by a short sighted Roads and Traffic Authority....

OR

"The one day I'm late for work ,and a car breaks' down in the tunnel"--"I'll be there in ten ...OK?"

Spock
23-11-2012, 09:06 AM
Hate to be blunt Spock but who the hell do you think would stump up the cash for two 25-30m wide tunnels. I'd imagine to make a tunnel that wide structurally sound would be multiple times more expensive than what we have got.

Personally I think it's appropriate that there is some congestion in peak hour. I'd take a punt and say 20-30% of people driving in peak hour would have a realistic public transport option and if they would use it the rest that don't have that option will benefit. Unfortunately most will only bother to change their way of thinking when it becomes all to hard doing it the way they are used to.
Dunno if you're aware, but we have a mining boom here. We are the richest state in Australia and one of the richest in the entire region. If other poorer states and countries can afford better infrastructure, why can't we? If not now, then when?

Besides, who builds a tunnel, or any other infrastructure for that matter, that won't meet future demand? The idea of town planning is to look to the future. Imagine if if C. Y. O'Connor had done a half-arsed effort on our water supply and Mundaring Weir was a piddly little lake (on the basis that Perth was a small town back then and that's was all that we needed). Imagine if the Sydney Harbour bridge was a dinky little one lane affair?

Just how will the tunnel problem be resolved now, please tell me that? What are we going to do in 2050 when the traffic is 10 times what it is now? You only get one chance at projects like this.

Commander Keen
23-11-2012, 09:09 AM
Because we obviously need a new football stadium first.

euphoric
23-11-2012, 09:42 AM
Unless of course it's a 70s circa Citroen ;) I used to have an old CX2400, and if the engine failed you only had a short time before the residual pressure in the hydropneumatic spheres dropped and you had NO steering and NO brakes and the wheels would be scraping the arches.

A plus was that it could never be wheel-clamped though!

yup, i had a DS28 for a while. awesome car, but all hydro linked to same pump could cause some issues.

GsxInShed
23-11-2012, 09:48 AM
You are right, of course Mr Keen.
There's always room for another Ivory Tower
Even if it is only for the Need and Greed branch of State Government
I wonder if the tunnel idea of Spock's for a few more lanes would've taken off if parliament house was near Perth Central ( and pollies work at 7.00 a.m. to 5.00 p.m.- on a pay scale that was commensurate with their productivity)
So... no more taxpayer funded freebies/endless Govvy cars and drivers'/not being help resposible for their fuck up's
ie; Carmen Lawrence--Colin Carpenter--et all from here to next ( thank fuck we have a) mining boom...what a tragedy if lane widening only takes 2 more years to complete on the GEF... whew!

marklh
23-11-2012, 09:58 AM
Getting a car was the mistake .. they should have got some Goldwings to get to the vehicle :
Honda Gold Wing Motorcycle Retriever Hauls Cars - autoevolution (http://www.autoevolution.com/news/honda-gold-wing-motorcycle-retriever-hauls-cars-24628.html)

Goldwing Tow Trucks - ADVrider (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585197)

Happy Steve
23-11-2012, 10:09 AM
Hate to be blunt Spock but who the hell do you think would stump up the cash for two 25-30m wide tunnels.
A standard traffic lane is 3.5m wide so the equivalent of five lanes would be 17.5 to 18.5m each way. 30m would easily supply 8 lanes.

Corona 122
23-11-2012, 10:15 AM
While there might have been a mining boom Spock every man and his dog wants a slice of it ( including the rest of the country ). You have to draw the line somewhere. While it might not be visionary enough for you going massively into debt to have infrastructure for 40 years time is not a smart move and would have a large effect on the quality of your life in other ways.

The solution is not to keep ever expanding roads that a quite suitable for 21 hours a day to cope with 3 hours of congestion it is encouraging other solutions such as

Better public transport ( although that will be an ever ongoing argument )
Frequent riders rewards. ( Perhaps something like travel every business day in a month and go into a draw for a years free travel )
Car Pool/Motorbike/Bus lanes
Cheep all day parking for cars with 4+ passengers in CBD. Bloody expensive all day parking for cars with only a driver.
5 hour parking limit in all the "Convenient" car parks in the CBD.

Corona 122
23-11-2012, 10:17 AM
A standard traffic lane is 3.5m wide so the equivalent of five lanes would be 17.5 to 18.5m each way. 30m would easily supply 8 lanes.

DOH!!! It was to early for maths alright!!!

Either way its still 7m wider than the current tunnels that went in.

Spock
23-11-2012, 11:57 AM
While there might have been a mining boom Spock every man and his dog wants a slice of it ( including the rest of the country ).....
More like the majority overseas owned mining companies and corporations want all of the cake and are reluctant to give the man and his dog even a decent sized slice.

But yes, I agree, the solution needs to be a big picture solution incorpoarting better public transport, etc.

However, this doesn't change the fact that whoever put together the tunnel plan was a bit retarted as they added a dinky tunnel (with a bottleneck at the East entrance) but took away all the roads above it that provided the original route through the City - and which would have helped ease traffic congestion today.

I can't see any way that they can widen the tunnel now or add alternative routes, more's the pity. What a lemon of a project. :rolleyes:

Buffle
23-11-2012, 12:09 PM
The people are not the problem, it's the politicians and town planners who gave us a tunnel that didn't even meet traffic needs on the day it opened let alone have a reserve capacity or upgrade ability to meet future increased demand.
Look at the whinging about the NBN to see why we get what we get in regard to lack of vision.

Corona 122
23-11-2012, 12:41 PM
Would you prefer what we have got or the project not to have happened at all. The tunnel opened around the time i moved permanently to Perth so I can't vouch for how good or bad it was from any regular experience before hand but I suspect what we have is considerably better than what you would be putting up with had it not happened.

I do stand by the fact running a two lane tunnel and opening the emergency lane as an extra lane either at fixed times to cover peak hour or on a live system once congestion drops flow below a minimum acceptable speed is an appropriate solution and I would be stunned if it wasn't at least discussed in the design stage as a future expansion possibility. If it wasn't then I suspect you would have ended up with a two lane tunnel with no emergency lane at all.

Spock
23-11-2012, 01:08 PM
Would you prefer what we have got or the project not to have happened at all.
I hear this sort of comment all the time, in all sorts of contexts and I believe this attitude is what prevents Australia from becoming a truly great country. What a shame. :(

I used the example of CY O'Conner earlier, a person with vision to whom West Australians owe a debt of gratitude. Without his contribution, Perth would be a two bit cowboy town. Thank God he ignored the naysayers long enough to achieve what he did. Pity that in the end he was driven to suicide by the people who had tried to derail or sabotage his projects.

The makers of the tunnel may well have avoided controversy and criticism due to their heavily watered down project, but they will never be remembed with any respect or gratitude 100 years from now.

If anything, people of the future will wonder why WA didn't "seize the day" while they had the chance to capitalise on the mining boom. I feel sorry for the next generation.

TurboR1
23-11-2012, 01:16 PM
I feel sorry for the next generation.

Looking at Perth (WA in general) I've been feeling sorry for myself for the past 2 decades.

Spock
23-11-2012, 01:20 PM
Looking at Perth (WA in general) I've been feeling sorry for myself for the past 2 decades.
I hear you. The answer to every question is Perth is "No."

This place moves so slow into the future, the Amish would fit in real well. Do you remember the bullshit petrol station rosters system we used to have to put up with with for example?

filbert
23-11-2012, 01:30 PM
Yep we're all against progress, someone wants to attempt to run another lane in the tunnel and run a shunt car as a contingency plan and all anyone can do is look for reasons why it won't work.....

If we didn't fight so hard against any kind of attempt at progress we might actually see some, but it's always shoulda, coulda, woulda, if it couldn't be done right we should leave it as it is.....

Spock
23-11-2012, 01:31 PM
Yep we're all against progress, someone wants to attempt to run another lane in the tunnel and run a shunt car as a contingency plan and all anyone can do is look for reasons why it won't work.....

If we didn't fight so hard against any kind of attempt at progress we might actually see some, but it's always shoulda, coulda, woulda, if it couldn't be done right we should leave it as it is.....
I have no problem with the shunt car. But I think the emergency lane is pretty essential for more reasons than just so that the shunt car can get to where it needs to go.

filbert
23-11-2012, 01:37 PM
I have no problem with the shunt car. But I think the emergency lane is pretty essential for more reasons than just so that the shunt car can get to where it needs to go.

Hopefully they'll work that out :lol: I still think some driver education programs on keeping traffic rolling through bottlenecks by leaving a buffer wouldn't go astray, I've been in stop/start bumper to bumper traffic snarl and still managed to avoid a complete stop like the traffic in front just by using my brain, even a sustained walking pace is easier than the lurch and jerk tailgating most seem intent on doing.

somebodyelse
23-11-2012, 01:37 PM
shunt car for the tunnel? about time too
just as well theres never been a break down on the narrows bridge

the tunnel is more than adequate to do what it was designed for
- give the pollies easier access to the airport from parliment house

Spock
23-11-2012, 01:39 PM
Hopefully they'll work that out :lol: I still think some driver education programs on keeping traffic rolling through bottlenecks by leaving a buffer wouldn't go astray, I've been in stop/start bumper to bumper traffic snarl and still managed to avoid a complete stop like the traffic in front just by using my brain, even a sustained walking pace is easier than the lurch and jerk tailgating most seem intent on doing.
Driver education would be good too! ;)

Corona 122
23-11-2012, 02:02 PM
Driver education would be good too! ;)

You'll get your bucket list of infrastructure projects well before that happens!!!

TurboR1
23-11-2012, 02:41 PM
I hear you. The answer to every question is Perth is "No."

Or the other... "don't like it leave"

Perth is like a wounded dog... it crawls along, whimpering in pain... it knows something is very wrong, it doesn't like it or know how to fix it... yet when someone approaches with help, or a fix, watch it rear its back and bare its fangs at you.

chew
23-11-2012, 03:26 PM
You can throw Ernie Bridge in there as well Spock.

One of our big problems is the adversarial parliament, which in a new country like ours we should be looking at altering as opposed to being rooted in the past (in more ways than one ;)), and the short terms of governance. The parties involved are too busy looking towards the next election after 18 months of being in power to create any long term improvements or projects.

As for the traffic issue I think it too is going to become less of an issue as peak oil hits and prices start pushing upwards of $2.00/litre.

TurboR1
23-11-2012, 03:34 PM
peak oil hits

Not for another 500 years it wont.


start pushing upwards of $2.00/litre. Still cheaper than the UK.

chew
23-11-2012, 04:05 PM
Not for another 500 years it wont.

Still cheaper than the UK.

$2.00/per litre is about as optimistic as your 500 years.

Para045
23-11-2012, 04:24 PM
However, this doesn't change the fact that whoever put together the tunnel plan was a bit retarded as they added a dinky tunnel (with a bottleneck at the East entrance) but took away all the roads above it that provided the original route through the City - and which would have helped ease traffic congestion today.

I can't see any way that they can widen the tunnel now or add alternative routes, more's the pity. What a lemon of a project. :rolleyes:

Yep and now they are going to close Riverside Dr and make it even worse, hope to fuck that we never have a major accident like a chemical spill etc in or around the tunnel as the whole city will be gridlocked :o

filbert
23-11-2012, 04:29 PM
Yep and now they are going to close Riverside Dr and make it even worse, hope to fuck that we never have a major accident like a chemical spill etc in or around the tunnel as the whole city will be gridlocked :o

I thought they prohibited placarded loads in the tunnel when they built it for that reason...

somebodyelse
23-11-2012, 06:05 PM
dedicated motorcycle lanes :cool:

66
23-11-2012, 07:03 PM
dedicated motorcycle lanes :cool:

Isn't that what the dashed lines are?

Para045
23-11-2012, 09:00 PM
I thought they prohibited placarded loads in the tunnel when they built it for that reason...

AFAIK not all chemicals/fuels/dangerous goods are placarded loads and not all trucks obey the rules :rolleyes:

Even a serious multi car pile up would cause so many traffic hassles I'd hate to b anywhere near it as there are no real escape routes per se:huh: I mean there's a long way (~2.6km) between the East Pde exit to the James St exit and if you happen to be in the right lane when something happens good luck getting anywhere :o

EL BURITO
23-11-2012, 09:03 PM
I am surprised that the vehicle has government plates, as it was going to be part of the service contract with the operator, that would hint at a greater number of them being possible rather than a one off.

A hiace was the front runner for this job as is used on the contractors other tunnel operations over east anther hint Main Roads is actually considering more shunt vehicals.

ripper1199
26-11-2012, 03:26 AM
How do you turn (legally) around on the west end of the tunnel? Gotta drive north to Vincent Street then almost into Leederville to get back, is it? That must take ages when using a car and in peak hour...

Captain Starfish
26-11-2012, 06:28 AM
Off at Loftus, on again from Loftus.

chew
26-11-2012, 07:08 AM
dedicated motorcycle lanes :cool:


Isn't that what the dashed lines are?

I thought it was this lane?

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Business-industry/Commercial-services/About-RoadTek/RoadTek-Network-Services/~/media/busind/Commercial%20services/RoadTek/Linemarking2.ashx?w=250&h=375&as=1

loud'n'proud
26-11-2012, 08:41 AM
AFAIK not all chemicals/fuels/dangerous goods are placarded loads and not all trucks obey the rules :rolleyes:

Even a serious multi car pile up would cause so many traffic hassles I'd hate to b anywhere near it as there are no real escape routes per se:huh: I mean there's a long way (~2.6km) between the East Pde exit to the James St exit and if you happen to be in the right lane when something happens good luck getting anywhere :o

there's always a way out

79814

=Stevo=
26-11-2012, 09:23 AM
meh, emergency lanes in tunnels are overrated. Any decent crash will take up most of the lanes with debris and crap anyway.

The extra width required to build in an emergency lane at the extra capacity would have meant a lot more building demolition and damage during the construction phase which would have blown costs out further. WA already has a big enough problem delivering projects that are actually value for money and it really wasn't practical so was certainly designed to eventually lose the original emergency lane to gain additional capacity in the future.

Spock
26-11-2012, 09:28 AM
meh, emergency lanes in tunnels are overrated. Any decent crash will take up most of the lanes with debris and crap anyway.

Maybe so, but it would still allow ambulances and fire trucks to get to the crash and render assistance.

=Stevo=
26-11-2012, 09:47 AM
Maybe so, but it would still allow ambulances and fire trucks to get to the crash and render assistance.

Yeah I agree its a big issue and is definitely a problem, but the same thing could happen on the narrows or the new murray bridge on the freeway extension or anywhere else we don't have emergency lanes. Design standards are getting better each year and now we have contingencies for these kind of situations such as hydrants/boosters the whole way down the tunnel and emergency access/egress locations.

I'm sure that the local crews or a certain% of emergency services types would be kept up to date on contingency plans such as lugging fire hose/stretchers down the emergency access route or similar scenarios such as approaching from the other tunnel and using one of the horizontal access tunnels and would have to update/drill every now and then.

Corona 122
26-11-2012, 05:21 PM
Maybe so, but it would still allow ambulances and fire trucks to get to the crash and render assistance.

The other half was involved in the Pre-Opening emergency exercise ( Half hanging out the windscreen with fake blood everywhere trying not to grin to much ). As in the exercise if it is chaos in the side with the emergency they will just lob into the other tunnel and come through the access doors between them fire hoses, stretchers and all.

TurboR1
26-11-2012, 06:26 PM
We could just make all ambulances and fire truck shunt vehicles... two birds one stone... you can all thank me later.

EL BURITO
26-11-2012, 10:05 PM
How do you turn (legally) around on the west end of the tunnel? Gotta drive north to Vincent Street then almost into Leederville to get back, is it? That must take ages when using a car and in peak hour...
They wouldn't though, there is a break in the barrier just outside the tunnel entrance for maintnece to cross to the other direction.

Spock
27-11-2012, 09:11 AM
The other half was involved in the Pre-Opening emergency exercise ( Half hanging out the windscreen with fake blood everywhere trying not to grin to much ). As in the exercise if it is chaos in the side with the emergency they will just lob into the other tunnel and come through the access doors between them fire hoses, stretchers and all.
What if it's rush hour and with Murphy's Law both sides of the tunnel are gridlocked?

Martin1
27-11-2012, 12:33 PM
what if, what if, what if?
keep going Spock. i am sure eventually you will come up with a scenario that someone hasn't thought of/planned for... :-P

the problem is the planners/govt/main rds get crucified either way.
- Build what they did and it's: "they should have done more", "how shortsighted", etc.
- Build a wider tunnel and they get grilled for the "huge cost", "unecessary expenditure", "why didn't we use that money and build a hospital/school/cop-shop", etc.

While i agree that what they have built is a compromise, you are acting as if you are the only one to spot it! you don't think the planners knew it was a compromise when it was designed?? I don't know for sure, but i suspect they did ;-)

anyway, I am sure they could have built it as 4 lanes each way and the Perth traffic would stil get confused and cause a jam at peak times. :)

Shady7/8
27-11-2012, 12:40 PM
What if it's rush hour and with Murphy's Law both sides of the tunnel are gridlocked?

Surprise Shunt sex?

Corona 122
27-11-2012, 04:44 PM
Alright Spock I give up. The only proper solution that would have taken into account future expansion would have been a tunnel from the Causeway linking to Freeway South/Stirling Hwy, The current tunnel could have Freeway South exit deleted.

A crossover link between both Tunnels to ease congestion through the section between GFF and the Narrows.

All tunnels to be 5 lanes wide with emergency lanes both sides in all tunnels plus a dedicated service tunnel between capable of supporting multiple emergency services vehicles.

Would that be acceptable???

Wonder how far in debt we would be if there wasn't a little common sence go into the planing. Currently stands at $18,557,099,00 and counting quicker than I can type.

Back on topic. SHUNT CAR IS A F^%KING GOOD IDEA!!!

Spock
27-11-2012, 06:03 PM
All I'm saying is there is an emergency lane for a reason and taking it away is not exactly the best thing for safety. If they planned to turn it into another lane why bother with it in the first place. Seems like poor planning to me.

Okay, be that as it may, clearly there are people who believe our tunnel is world class and that the number of lanes is just perfect. :rolleyes: What a great effort from the government of the richest State in Australia (and one of the richest in our region) - not.

Putting the issue of the number of lanes/emergency lane in the tunnel to one side for a moment, is it just me that thinks only a fool would design a traffic situation where three lanes merge into two on the East side of the tunnel? What a joke.

PS - shunt car is a good idea.

Spock
27-11-2012, 06:17 PM
Wonder how far in debt we would be if there wasn't a little common sence go into the planing. Currently stands at $18,557,099,00 and counting quicker than I can type.
btw - debt is not a always a bad thing. Otherwise no one would buy businesses, houses, investment properties, etc. with anything other than cash. And we know that even millionaires (or even billionaires) don't buy stuff like that with cash. Governments are no different.

Martin1
28-11-2012, 10:03 AM
All I'm saying is there is an emergency lane for a reason and taking it away is not exactly the best thing for safety. If they planned to turn it into another lane why bother with it in the first place. Seems like poor planning to me.
It does seem strange, but as has been mentioned; that might have been the contingency for future demand? 2 lanes + emergency, with the option to increase to 3 lanes when congestion increases? Although this doesn't fit your gripe and therefore you've dismissed it as a fools errand?


Okay, be that as it may, clearly there are people who believe our tunnel is world class and ....
ok, stop there. you don't need to throw your rattle out of the pram and have a tantrum! :)
I don't think anyone has said it is world class, or "best in show". people have compared it to other tunnels around the world that they know of. surely this is a fair comment to make?


Putting the issue of the number of lanes/emergency lane in the tunnel to one side for a moment, is it just me that thinks only a fool would design a traffic situation where three lanes merge into two on the East side of the tunnel? What a joke.
I think it is a poor solution too, but doubt it was designed by a fool. it was no doubt designed by engineers who, on the one hand wanted to design to world's best practice, and on the other had a client (govt/voting public) who probably wanted to spend as little money as possible to get something done. This has resulted in compromises across the board, including poor layout of merging lanes like you say.

for the record; i wasn't involved in the design of the tunnel (though like you, i would love to have been a fly on the wall to see why some things were done the way they were), nor do i love it and think it to be the best of its kind. I have worked on govt infrastructure projects before though, and know that the compromises are heavy and frequent. you only need to look at the heat the media have put on the Perth Arena, the Mandurah Rail line, and any other recent infrastructure project to know why these compromises are always made.

Heck even as far back as O'Connor, who couldn't have done much of what he did without the support of John Forrest, these projects were subjected to immense scrutiny and public ridicule.

Spock
28-11-2012, 12:34 PM
martin: I hear you on all those points but just because things are the way they are and it's not easy to get infrastructure projects through, doesn't mean we, as the public, need to accept things that are second-rate.

Perhaps people like me asking for 'bigger and better' will offset other people who are happy with cheap and nasty - and don't care because they won't be using the train/tunnel/freeway or whatever, and just need to get something done asap so they can get brownie points and be re-elected.

marklh
28-11-2012, 01:52 PM
Saw the shunt car sitting there this morning waiting for some action, on the East Parade on ramp to the tunnel.
Would be pretty boring sitting there waiting for something to happen !

Martin1
28-11-2012, 03:41 PM
[MENTION=19893]Perhaps people like me asking for 'bigger and better' will offset other people who are happy with cheap and nasty.
I honestly hope it does mate. With our 4yr election cycle the cynic in me has a habit of playing devil's advocate, but i am probably the first who would agree with you that things should be done right, and done with foresight, rather than done for the now and on the cheap.