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View Full Version : Russia's Krokodil (desomorphine) - YouTube vid is NSFW...



pauly_
12-12-2012, 11:05 AM
I don't normally post on PSB... but when I do...

I searched the site too, so apologies if repost.

""krokodil" has become notorious for producing severe tissue damage, phlebitis and gangrene, sometimes requiring limb amputation in long-term users..."

Krokodil: Russia's Deadliest Drug (NSFW) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsUH8llvTZo)

Desomorphine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desomorphine)

speed3
12-12-2012, 11:11 AM
Desomorphine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desomorphine)

your wiki link was borked


That's some fucked up shit.

Dragunov-21
12-12-2012, 11:13 AM
I don't normally post on PSB... but when I do...

You start post links about the nasty stuff poor junkies are sticking in themselves without any additional discussion?

Yep... desomorphine's pretty bad alright.

pauly_
12-12-2012, 11:31 AM
Cheers speed3

I didn't have anything specific I wanted to discuss about the drug. I've read stuff on here I wouldn't have come across and this was something new I thought I'd share. Would I try it? Hell no. I wonder if it's used in Australia...

Warning: Graphic Content

Dangerous Minds | Bleak House: Hardcore photos of Russian Krokodil junkies’ squalid drug den (http://dangerousminds.net/comments/bleak_house_hardcore_photos_of_russian_krokodil_ju nkies_squalid_drug_den)

Dangerous Minds | Krokodil: The drug that (literally) eats junkies (http://dangerousminds.net/comments/krokodil_the_drug_that_literally_eats_junkies)

euphoric
12-12-2012, 11:49 AM
not seen in australia. what is happening in Russia is due to the drug policy, desperate people do desperate things. Heroin is much easier to get here so not much need. Pharmaceutical opiates are all the rage here, with the issue being that people don't filter out the bulking agents etc so end up with abcess, endocarditis and talcosis (talc covering lungs). Users can get filters to avoid such things at needle exchanges. Russia has one of the most hard line drug policy in the world, which is one of the reason it is the leading country for HIV transmission and other harms such as injecting Kompot and Krokadil. nasty shite indeed.

SOLID
12-12-2012, 12:09 PM
Well that was uplifting....

Rorschach
12-12-2012, 12:32 PM
Feel a bit ill now, and I'm not squeamish

Desmo
12-12-2012, 12:37 PM
This just proves that prohibition doesn't work.
http://www.businessinsider.com/portugal-drug-policy-decriminalization-works-2012-7

euphoric
12-12-2012, 12:47 PM
Breaking The Taboo - Film - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UtNF-Le2L0)

when you have time....excellent doco. I believe the next ten years there will be a dramatic shift in drug policy..

Nine
12-12-2012, 12:47 PM
Watched a doco on this stuff a few months ago...
10 levels of fucked up.
They call it crokodil because it makes your skin go scaley.

Neuroglider
12-12-2012, 12:59 PM
I shouldn't have read this during lunch... :/

TurboR1
12-12-2012, 01:18 PM
Don't need to go as far as Russia to see kids fucked up on drugs.

ńlen
12-12-2012, 01:32 PM
I shouldn't have read this during lunch... :/

I also did a Google search and now I fill very sick :sick::sick::sick:

http://usahitman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Russia-teenagers-using-Krokodil-drug-445x400.jpg

shan
12-12-2012, 01:38 PM
Tis the zombie apocalypse
Git ya gunns boys where a garn shootin

Yeeeee Harrrrrr

pauly_
12-12-2012, 02:16 PM
It's pretty powerful... they know the consequences and yet they keep injecting. I get the concept of addiction, but there's no thought to switch to something a little less destructive... like that guy when he said something along the lines of 'I'm going to die soon anyway'... wtf?

So your leg starts to fall off and you go to hospital... you recover and what... damn, half my leg is gone...

I'm amazed (don't misconstrue as naive) at the power of the human mind sometimes.

I also get that heroin, morphine, codeine etc. are more readily available and so there is no need for people to try and make this stuff... I was thinking more.. I wonder if anyone has been ballsy enough to try it... do we have any recorded deaths from using it...

Cheers for your comments if you've added them, interesting to know your thoughts and what you know about this.

pauly_
12-12-2012, 02:19 PM
Don't need to go as far as Russia to see kids fucked up on drugs.

no... don't have to go out of WA to see kids fucked up on stuff that you wouldn't even classify as a drug...

Desmo
12-12-2012, 02:35 PM
I've heard more than once that heroin is better than sex, although it's not something I've tried.
When you see how destitute these people are, a high is the only thing they feel they have.
Couple that to addiction, which is a very strange beast indeed, and you see these sad stories.

danmac
12-12-2012, 03:14 PM
am i the only one who cant help but read it as desmomorphine?

euphoric
12-12-2012, 03:18 PM
Dependency is an incredibly powerful motivator. People can know, and think of the damage itís doing them, and yet the synapse in their brain removes much of their choice in the matter. Smoking cigarettes is similar, if less dramatic. We know the damage it does, you donít even get high from it, you stink and yet people persist. And they persist even right after they have been told they have lung cancer. People talk about how they hear they have cancer and the first thing they do? Go and have a cigarette...why? Because the physical dependency, because of the habit but mostly a cigarette is the most dependency forming method of drug intake we know of. Every time a smoker lifts their arm to take a drag that neural pathway becomes a little stronger. To say to some people to stop is like saying to them only breathe out. Add to that people feeling hopeless as in thinking that their life is always going to be crap and feel crap regardless and for that 90minutes they get to feel a little comfort and joy, people will go right ahead and continue to do incredibly damaging things to themselves over and over and over. There is a certain comfort in familiarity,even in that familiarity is completely fucked up.

Desmo
12-12-2012, 03:20 PM
am i the only one who cant help but read it as desmomorphine?

No.

TurboR1
12-12-2012, 06:12 PM
I've heard more than once that heroin is better than sex, although it's not something I've tried.

No? I reckon you'd enjoy sex.

deano68er
13-12-2012, 05:50 AM
No? I reckon you'd enjoy sex.

What style... Grammar nazi style ;)

TurboR1
13-12-2012, 07:43 AM
What style... Grammar nazi style ;)

Did I hear you say Gangnam Nazi Style???


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrrEdazqYdU

Goodwin's law in 22 posts... not bad.

deano68er
13-12-2012, 07:52 AM
Live my life between the gutter and the kerb, everyone comes down to say g'day eventually. Did learn something new today ( Goodwins law).
Also have been singing it in my head.
Can't play on mobile so will check vid at home. See you this arvo

Mo-Fo
13-12-2012, 08:35 AM
I don't feel pity for any hardcore drug addicts. They can't plead ignorance or innocence. But it's often innocent people who bare the brunt of their crime as they go about stealing and robbing to feed their habit. They give nothing to society and take all they can.

I wish all the best to the few who wake up, seek help and actually make it back into society. But a fatal overdose is the best way for the rest.

chew
13-12-2012, 08:43 AM
I don't feel pity for any hardcore drug addicts. They can't plead ignorance or innocence. But it's often innocent people who bare the brunt of their crime as they go about stealing and robbing to feed their habit. They give nothing to society and take all they can.

I wish all the best to the few who wake up, seek help and actually make it back into society. But a fatal overdose is the best way for the rest.

So the casual user and those hard core addicts that can afford their addiction but are the mainstay of the industry are alright?

RRossi
13-12-2012, 08:49 AM
just awful shit, reminded me of a movie scean,


we all dont know how lucky we have it here!!



RR

TurboR1
13-12-2012, 08:50 AM
So the casual user and those hard core addicts that can afford their addiction but are the mainstay of the industry are alright?

Well apparently the world needs AFL players?

SIKYSA
13-12-2012, 09:22 AM
Note: Do not google image search "krokodil+drug"

pauly_
13-12-2012, 09:32 AM
Well apparently the world needs AFL players?

That's the whole 'high performing drug addict' debate... it's more acceptable to abuse drugs so long as it's not detrimental to those around you and you can maintain the status quo, that being performing at an elite level... AFL players, movie stars and so forth. But hey it can go wrong big time too (Heath Ledger and others).

euphoric
13-12-2012, 09:57 AM
That's the whole 'high performing drug addict' debate... it's more acceptable to abuse drugs so long as it's not detrimental to those around you and you can maintain the status quo, that being performing at an elite level... AFL players, movie stars and so forth. But hey it can go wrong big time too (Heath Ledger and others).

Actually....MOST illicit drug users don't fit the sterotype the Mo-Fo has mentioned. It changes from drug to drug a little (esp methylamphetamine), but it mostly fits with what we know about alcohol. 10% of users will be problematic users, the rest will use in context. I know of long term heroin users who use about once a month as a end of rotation treat, people who will use xtc once a year on their birthdays and more than a few people who will do a line before they go out on the town or on a saturday morning to get the house work done. They are mostly well educated, fully employed and have stable lives...the only criminal act in their life is using something we have deemed prohibited and the only criminal contact they have is when they score. The reason we don't hear about them...because there high risk in them outing themselves and the label of junkie doens't make a distinction between them and the dickhead stealing your car...we aren't encouraged to research "successful" illict drug use.

pauly_
13-12-2012, 10:22 AM
There has been a little research done on illicit drug use in universities - students using 'study aids' (dexies, red-bull, no-doze etc) and if I wasn't at work I'd Google it and try find the paper. They're not trying to flog your GPS from your car or steal your iPhone from you at a train station... just trying to get 50%.

pauly_
13-12-2012, 10:23 AM
just awful shit, reminded me of a movie scean,


we all dont know how lucky we have it here!!



RR

Which movie - Requiem for a Dream?

TurboR1
13-12-2012, 10:36 AM
we all dont know how lucky we have it here!!

You've never been to Roebourne (WA), Frankston (Vic) or Blacktown (NSW) then.

euphoric
13-12-2012, 10:38 AM
There has been a little research done on illicit drug use in universities - students using 'study aids' (dexies, red-bull, no-doze etc) and if I wasn't at work I'd Google it and try find the paper. They're not trying to flog your GPS from your car or steal your iPhone from you at a train station... just trying to get 50%.

yup, the majority of illict drug users are very well aware of why they are using...drug use is functional and thats what most illict drug education misses. when the education is gloom and doom there is a bunch of people saying "meh, i used that and it hasn't sent me insane, killed me or made me sell my arse for a few $" and so everything else even if vital information get discredited. People take drugs because they serve a purpose and are mostly fun (although not in the the case of this thread topic).

RRossi
13-12-2012, 10:51 AM
You've never been to Roebourne (WA), Frankston (Vic) or Blacktown (NSW) then.


No sorry?

But I have been to

Balga once does this count?



RR

deano68er
13-12-2012, 10:53 AM
No sorry?

But I have been th
I balga once does this count?

RR

Grew up in Balga, it's nothing special

Mo-Fo
13-12-2012, 11:02 AM
So the casual user and those hard core addicts that can afford their addiction but are the mainstay of the industry are alright?
Whether you're casual or hardcore as soon as you cross that line of stealing/robbing then you can drop dead afaic. If you can pay for your drugs with your own legally gotten gains then that's your own business.

euphoric
13-12-2012, 11:07 AM
Whether you're casual or hardcore as soon as you cross that line of stealing/robbing then you can drop dead afaic. If you can pay for your drugs with your own legally gotten gains then that's your own business.

I can understand your thinking here, but would extend the point a little. I know plenty of people who can afford their drug of choice but then act like arse hats in the extreme who just seem to get off on inflicting misery onto others.

Mo-Fo
13-12-2012, 11:17 AM
I can understand your thinking here, but would extend the point a little. I know plenty of people who can afford their drug of choice but then act like arse hats in the extreme who just seem to get off on inflicting misery onto others.
Agreed. Same applies to those who can't handle their shit.

I never did H but I did do a concoction from weed to charlie, I never stole to pay for it and was never a cunt to anyone while I was on it. Same goes for alchohol, just makes me chatty.

Do whatever you want in life just as long as others aren't suffering because of it. Simple. Plus don't use alcohol or drugs as an excuse for your shitty behaviour.

euphoric
13-12-2012, 11:33 AM
agreed....many years ago i worked on a pilot project where older recovered opiate users were paired with younger users as they went though detox etc. the old school users, many who were currently still users were actually really harsh, which i think was the reason the project never got refunded. The older users were like "there no need to do violent crime when you can do social security or medicare fraud or dealing etc if you need to feed a habit" One old bloke who had done a lot of time who was paired with a young italian guy actually beat the crap out of the younger guy because the young guy was stupid enough to say it was the heroin that made him do a bag snatch from an old lady. I remember the old guy yelling into his very bruised up face "if you're an asshole with the smack you were an asshole before the smack, don't....blame...the smack!" The last four words punctuated with a slap for each word. i liked to think of it as a very brief intervention...

filbert
13-12-2012, 12:51 PM
most addicts who turn to theft to support their habit as their life goes down the toilet started out as casual users with no ill intent

addiction is a health and social problem

TurboR1
13-12-2012, 01:01 PM
Reminds me of the old joke (which is kind of fitting for this time of year).

What do you get a man that has everything for Christmas?

Heroin, that way next year he'll have nothing.

On a lighter note, am I alone in thinking that flooding the market with lethal cocktails would be a more beneficial and financially prudent way to deal with addiction? Think of all the health care resources that could no be used to assist those that actually wish to live healthy.

Dragunov-21
13-12-2012, 01:22 PM
On a lighter note, am I alone in thinking that flooding the market with lethal cocktails would be a more beneficial and financially prudent way to deal with addiction? Think of all the health care resources that could no be used to assist those that actually wish to live healthy.

Sincere or otherwise, that's a disgusting sentiment (if only because it does occasionally happen).

Even if you're happy being a fundamentalist, where are you gonna draw the line? Spiking grog with methanol? Dioxin in cheeseburgers?

filbert
13-12-2012, 01:28 PM
Reminds me of the old joke (which is kind of fitting for this time of year).

What do you get a man that has everything for Christmas?

Heroin, that way next year he'll have nothing.

On a lighter note, am I alone in thinking that flooding the market with lethal cocktails would be a more beneficial and financially prudent way to deal with addiction? Think of all the health care resources that could no be used to assist those that actually wish to live healthy.

that's certainly one valid approach but some of the bleeding hearts may mistake it for genocide

we could always try removing the criminality of drug use and instead target the causes and effects and instead of looking at users and addicts as a drain on the system, instead see them as an employment opportunity for massive growth in the health sector and cottage industries for growth and production in place of the criminal black market, which could majorly increase available taxation revenues and promote economic growth from those who were once considered unproductive deadbeats and criminals :)

TurboR1
13-12-2012, 03:17 PM
Don't get me wrong I love watching giant % of my hard earned going to those who want for nothing other than the next hit, it makes so happy I could just shit. I'm not talking about the odd teenager who's just lit up a joint for the first time, but those sitting in their own urine with a needle sticking out of their arm in their blissful chemical induced nirvana.

But do the math... add up all the health care that you pay over a decade for a drug addict's habit (assuming he/she lives that long), add in the police work for when they commit the crimes to feed their habit, the other lives they destroy by getting others hooked, the cost of and to the children they bring into the world to get the financial benefits to further their habit. The mental cost on heath care workers that put up with their shit, abuse and violence.

Then add up the cost of that fatal hit.

Wouldn't it be better to get that fatal hit out of the way first?

footer
13-12-2012, 03:33 PM
The training that I did on this drug was amazing. I haven't read the all the post. It is currently being used in parts on QLD.

pauly_
13-12-2012, 04:12 PM
The training that I did on this drug was amazing. I haven't read the all the post. It is currently being used in parts on QLD.

Is that anecdotal or referenced?

filbert
13-12-2012, 06:21 PM
Don't get me wrong I love watching giant % of my hard earned going to those who want for nothing other than the next hit, it makes so happy I could just shit. I'm not talking about the odd teenager who's just lit up a joint for the first time, but those sitting in their own urine with a needle sticking out of their arm in their blissful chemical induced nirvana.

But do the math... add up all the health care that you pay over a decade for a drug addict's habit (assuming he/she lives that long), add in the police work for when they commit the crimes to feed their habit, the other lives they destroy by getting others hooked, the cost of and to the children they bring into the world to get the financial benefits to further their habit. The mental cost on heath care workers that put up with their shit, abuse and violence.

Then add up the cost of that fatal hit.

Wouldn't it be better to get that fatal hit out of the way first?

oh i'm a strongly outspoken advocate of utilitarian bioethicism, post natal abortion and involuntary medical euthenasia for the very reasons you've proposed but i'm keeping an open mind and my options open to use the more gentle approach in case i ever have a family member in the situation and have to use it :) wouldn't it be embarrassing to be a police commissioner or in a similar position of authority with a hard line on drugs and crime and then your son gets blown up in a meth lab explosion or something.

chew
13-12-2012, 06:35 PM
If it is all about my tax dollars and considering the amount of harm alcohol causes maybe we should do the lethal cocktail with that as well?

Interesting that junkies that can afford it dont seem to bother most people. Maybe if it was made cheaper and more available there would not be a "dirty, thieving junkie problem."

Dragunov-21
13-12-2012, 07:36 PM
Wouldn't it be better to get that fatal hit out of the way first?

Sure, if there were any way of differentiating between the gear making its way to our somehow predetermined wastrels and that going to people who can afford it/exercise moderation.

As Chew said, drugs are stupidly cheap when you're not paying the the manufacturers'/dealers' making-my-20-year-prison-sentence-risk-worthwhile tax.

Hell, most opiate users would probably be growing their own in a garden bed and if heroin was desperately desired, it's only a short step away once Ac2O was dropped as a prescribed precursor.

Mo-Fo
13-12-2012, 10:15 PM
Interesting that junkies that can afford it dont seem to bother most people. Maybe if it was made cheaper and more available there would not be a "dirty, thieving junkie problem."
Chew, if we're talking people who afford it from money they earn from work or other legal means then no why should that bother anyone? It's their own money, they can do whatever they like with it. They're not negatively impacting on those around them (public behaviour pending of course). Plus anyone that can afford it through their own legal means is 'functioning' and is a social drug user not a junkie or addict. You won't find junkie's holding down a job, so they steal and rob. Who do you think are responsible for most burgalrys?

I'm sure there's some really sad stories behind a lot of junkies and I could feel sorry for them... if they weren't stealing our shit and bashing the elderly for a few dollars.

So in that case, fuck em. Break into my house and I'll have my gun safe open quicker than they can say "oh fuck he's opened his gun safe".

66
13-12-2012, 10:28 PM
This just proves that prohibition doesn't work.
Portugal Drug Policy: Decriminalization Works - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/portugal-drug-policy-decriminalization-works-2012-7)

I've got another (quite grim) way of looking at it...

These typical drugs have been cracked down on so hard, they have now discovered krokodil.
It seems to be nearly 100% effective at killing its user.

Surely this will knock off the addictive types soon enough, and leave the place almost entirely 'drug free'

Offer no medical assitance, and let Darwin run his course.

I know this won't sit with you desmo, but I've got. Fairly hard and fast view on rec drug use.

66
13-12-2012, 10:30 PM
On a lighter note, am I alone in thinking that flooding the market with lethal cocktails would be a more beneficial and financially prudent way to deal with addiction? Think of all the health care resources that could no be used to assist those that actually wish to live healthy.

Seems you beat me to it...

chew
14-12-2012, 06:29 AM
Chew, if we're talking people who afford it from money they earn from work or other legal means then no why should that bother anyone? It's their own money, they can do whatever they like with it. They're not negatively impacting on those around them (public behaviour pending of course). Plus anyone that can afford it through their own legal means is 'functioning' and is a social drug user not a junkie or addict. You won't find junkie's holding down a job, so they steal and rob. Who do you think are responsible for most burgalrys?

I'm sure there's some really sad stories behind a lot of junkies and I could feel sorry for them... if they weren't stealing our shit and bashing the elderly for a few dollars.

So in that case, fuck em. Break into my house and I'll have my gun safe open quicker than they can say "oh fuck he's opened his gun safe".

I assume by your stance then that you favour decriminalising or legalising illicit drugs to help solve the problem? As then drugs would be cheaper, thereby eliminating the need to steal and rob and we could call these people functioning social users and not addicts?

Iron_Zombie
14-12-2012, 07:26 AM
People moaning about the drain on the health care drug users make, do they have the same stance for much bigger drain on public health, such as smoking, obesity and alcohol ? All of them put a strain on taxes way more than illegal drugs, and are the leading causes of preventable deaths.

euphoric
14-12-2012, 07:42 AM
ok....let's consider this....prior to 1953 (Australia had very few drug laws before then) Australia had the worlds highest opiate (per capita) dependant population and yet NO associated crime. why? because you could buy opiate based cough syrup over the counter very cheaply. it's prohibition that bumps up the price by over 1000%. If we are serious about reducing drug related harm we must come to terms with the simple truth that most harm that comes from illict drug use comes from the" illicit" part rather than the "drug" part.

Desmo
14-12-2012, 07:56 AM
People moaning about the drain on the health care drug users make, do they have the same stance for much bigger drain on public health, such as smoking, obesity and alcohol ? All of them put a strain on taxes way more than illegal drugs, and are the leading causes of preventable deaths.

Actually, that's not entirely true. Fat people die younger than healthy people and therefore don't contribute to the associated health costs of keeping an older person alive.

TurboR1
14-12-2012, 08:19 AM
People moaning about the drain on the health care drug users make, do they have the same stance for much bigger drain on public health, such as smoking, obesity and alcohol ? All of them put a strain on taxes way more than illegal drugs, and are the leading causes of preventable deaths.

For the sake of the health care argument; Obesity.. to a point yes... no one wakes up one morning and finds out they have gained 100kg and their heart now like using a foot pump to blow up a bouncy castle, the question needs to be asked. "What exactly were expecting?" When I see people running in the mornings and the evenings, I don't admire the guys and girls that already look like super human athletes, I admire average Joe and those that are clearly overweight that are doing their most to help themselves, and even if they can only do it for 10-15 minutes at a time, they are doing 10-15min more than the next heart disease that we are all paying for currently scoffing down his next Big Mac. Obesity can hardly be classified as an addiction (I can't wait until I get my 14th chin)

Smoking, well I may be biased as I am a non smoker, yet I have many friends that are. Smoking is a recognised addiction and the harm to you health is well documented, yet the addiction to nicotene and the things it drives you to to get it rarely if ever drives the individual to theft to feed the addiction. Those that do are already on something harder which they have blown all their money on. The health care drain is huge, the cost to a smoke in insurance is also quite higher by my understanding. Though i would like to see those that throw their cigarette butts on the ground get a public flogging.

Alcohol... well see above, I too enjoy a drink and what happens will happen, yet addiction to alcohol can have greater impact on family. And probably one of the worst aspects of alcohol abuse is violence.

But lets say we legalise heroin... make it cheap and available... then what? Those who are so fucked up that really would benefit this planet by leaving it asap, you have just fed their addiction and further reduced their quality of life (if that were possible). People who would normally not touch the shit, get curious and since it's now on the shelf, have a go, get hooked and now are unable to function in society any more. You now no longer need to tell kids of the dangers drugs, but rather show them how to shoot up in class "Can't wait until 3rd period, Mr Jones carries the best"... but much like sex education the kids already know more about it than the teacher as they've been doing hard core anal since the age of 10. Forget about counting all those cigarette butts at bus stops they have just been replaced by syringes (People living in Kwinana and Rockingham can already relate). Oh HIV is on the way up... wonder why that is...

Desmo
14-12-2012, 08:31 AM
It isn't about legalisation though, Robin. Not in the sense of alcohol and tobacco it's about decriminalisation.
It's still illegal to traffic and possess but the ramifications if you get caught are different, you don't get locked up you get the help you need to beat the addiction.
Just because it's decriminalised doesn't mean there will be more around and more available. You won't be able to go and buy it off the shelf, this is the delineation people need to understand.
And as for an increase in the incidence of HIV, that won't happen. Already you can go to a pharmacy or an emergency room and grab a fitpack of clean needles legally.

Desmo
14-12-2012, 08:33 AM
I know this won't sit with you desmo, but I've got. Fairly hard and fast view on rec drug use.

I'm sorry but you are in my view entirely wrong.
Look at Amsterdam and Portugal and you'll see why decriminalisation works.
To suggest that recreational drug users should kill themselves is arrogant and extremely narrow minded.

TurboR1
14-12-2012, 08:39 AM
I see it only as giving those who are fucked up the green light to fuck them selves up more, and those who otherwise wouldn't fuck themselves up, get fucked....

I'd happy line them up against the wall... I'd pull the trigger myself knowing they are no longer a burden on this planet, I'd sleep calmer, warmer and happier knowing I won't have a blood filled syringe totting drugging attempting to get in my house, take the shit I work hard for and possible risk the lives of those I love.

By the way I hope we all enjoy paying for the aborigine housing up north which they trash too.

I view these kids (in the video) and and pretty much any junky in the same light as how feral animals are viewed... An unwanted, unneeded introduced vermin that should be eradicated. If anything I pity the feral animals more considering they are only doing what come naturally.

Dragunov-21
14-12-2012, 08:42 AM
I know this won't sit with you desmo, but I've got. Fairly hard and fast view on rec drug use.

Do you drink alcohol at all?

TurboR1
14-12-2012, 08:47 AM
Already you can go to a pharmacy or an emergency room and grab a fitpack of clean needles legally.

On similar vein I should be allowed to do 300kph on my motorbike where ever and when ever I choose?

pauly_
14-12-2012, 09:37 AM
[QUOTE=TurboR1;2735021]On similar veinQUOTE]

I see what you did there.

I dunno why I'm still reading about this drug, but I did the next best thing to a Google image search and found this.

Warning: NSFW: HIGHLY graphic content... if you are eating your lunch, don't watch this. If you are at work with people around, don't watch this.

Krokodil Drug (Rusia's Disaster)A drug that eats junkies - Ma tķy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM6v-43-1PU)

It just looks so unreal that I half went into a thought train that this is just a sensationalist story, entirely concocted, Russia's troll if you like...

filbert
14-12-2012, 10:04 AM
i turned to nicotine and alcohol to help break my marijuana dependence and amphetamine addiction.....

pot was easy to get and the doctors prescribe the amphetamines to just about anyone these days, i was glad to turn 18 and finally be able to get my fix in a legal and socially accepted manner

euphoric
14-12-2012, 10:19 AM
But lets say we legalise heroin... make it cheap and available... then what? Those who are so fucked up that really would benefit this planet by leaving it asap, you have just fed their addiction and further reduced their quality of life (if that were possible). People who would normally not touch the shit, get curious and since it's now on the shelf, have a go, get hooked and now are unable to function in society any more. You now no longer need to tell kids of the dangers drugs, but rather show them how to shoot up in class "Can't wait until 3rd period, Mr Jones carries the best"... but much like sex education the kids already know more about it than the teacher as they've been doing hard core anal since the age of 10. Forget about counting all those cigarette butts at bus stops they have just been replaced by syringes (People living in Kwinana and Rockingham can already relate). Oh HIV is on the way up... wonder why that is...

HIV is on the up in WA because hetro men inisist on going to high risk counties and paying extra to stick their unprotected penis into sex workers with HIV. Injecting Drug Use has never been a major transmission risk for HIV (HCV sadly not so though) in Australia because we set up needle exchanges very early in the piece. Less than 1% of all HIV tranmission in Aust is due to IDU.

As far as REGULATING or decriminalising heroin. (to legalise would be to make it like coffee, to regulate is to make it like alcohol)...the research (and the reality of countries that have done it) says that drug related crime goes away because people are no longer paying $1000 for something worth $1, that the stigma reduces so more people go into treatment (think about how we support people giving up smoking) and the majority of the health fallout also goes away (pharmacutical quality heroin is 100% non toxic). People overdose because there is no quality control, they do crime because they are physically dependant on a drug that prohibition has inflated the cost of and people avoid treatment because of the stigma involved. if the drug is cheap then people dont need to do the crime to maintain. Same goes for the "weed is far stonger than it was in the 60s" debate. First of all there is NO evidence of that, and secondly research has shown that stronger weed reduces the health fallout because people smoke less of it to get same feeling...of course there will alway be people that use in problematic ways...just like we dont restrict any road going vehicle to 110km/h because of a few problem speeders. what has been found when people no longer have to pay inflated prices for thier drugs they do wacky things like...reconnect with family, get jobs, do further education and reengage with community because they no longer have to find $1000 a day by doing crime and selling their bodies.

I could be wrong here, but I have found over my almost 20year career in AOD that people are happy to ignore the evidence based research and go with their feeling, entire governments have been doing it for decades and on a personal level the people who react so emotively to discussions on drug policy have some kind of negative exposure...a family member or child or friend who has a monkey on their back. if this is the case, i'm sorry to hear that. Just a few days ago I saw Anna Woods dad on TV maintain his daughter died of a XTC overdose 15years ago, when in fact she died because she drank too much water in one go.

I believe that ALMOST all drugs should be regulated. (meth is prob one of the very few i would keep prohibited) To maintain some drugs are prohibited for our own good when it is the most toxic that are regulated is treating people like idiots and does far more harm than good and keeping people who really need the treatment away from the help they need.

Dragunov-21
14-12-2012, 10:23 AM
On similar vein I should be allowed to do 300kph on my motorbike where ever and when ever I choose?

Nice try, but that's not a parallel in the least. What you've suggested would be equivalent to the right to get high off your face in public (where you might conceivably cause injury to those who have the right to be protected from your risk-taking), which I suspect most people, even advocates of decriminalisation, would not support. Even that parallel is being generous, given that the proportion of drugs users who are in control of themselves during use is arguable substantially higher than the proportion of motorcyclists would be in control of their motorcycle at 300km/h on a public road that they might be inclined to do 300km/h on.

The parallel to decriminalisation of possession would be having the right to own and use a bike that is capable of doing 300km/h on public streets, which IIRC, we already have.

Mo-Fo
14-12-2012, 10:28 AM
I assume by your stance then that you favour decriminalising or legalising illicit drugs to help solve the problem? As then drugs would be cheaper, thereby eliminating the need to steal and rob and we could call these people functioning social users and not addicts?
They'd still be non functioning junkies because they can't do anything but get high and think about getting high again. They're useless.

There's no working answer for the world's drug problem. It's like the war on terror, it can never be won. It's all part of the human condition.

So I'll just ride my bike and look after my own and really not give too much of a shit as long as life's ok for me and my fam. It's the least I can do.

Taylor
14-12-2012, 10:30 AM
On similar vein I should be allowed to do 300kph on my motorbike where ever and when ever I choose?

You are allowed to do that. You aren't prejudged, determined guilty of acts or punished because you own the object which would allow you to break the law if you used it inappropriately.

It's not like we are talking about a firearm.

euphoric
14-12-2012, 10:57 AM
They'd still be non functioning junkies because they can't do anything but get high and think about getting high again. They're useless.

There's no working answer for the world's drug problem. It's like the war on terror, it can never be won. It's all part of the human condition.


I disagree and agree. When I had sex for the first time many many years ago i thought a lot about doing it again, and have thought alot about it since...doesn't make me useless and has provided some of the best seconds of my life! There have been some very useful purposes for people getting high. Ether was used recreationally for about 300years before someone realised it could be used as an anesthetic (which i have been pretty thankful for when getting the snip). Charles Dickens used opiates every morning for much of his life. Winston Churchill used speed and opiate through most of WWII. Steve Jobs was quoted as saying using LSD was one of the three most important things he did in his life.

I agree with the human condition thing. Research is suggesting that the drive to alter our concience is just as stong as our sex drive. Little kids do it by spinning in circles. Some people by riding mototcycles or running marathons....drugs is a very effective way of altering. if we recognise that why not reduce the harms that come with it. people tell me my bike is gonna kill or maim me all the time, when in reality it just a machine with no ill will toward me...i reduce the harm by being a thinking rider and wearing the right gear etc. if we used the same kind of thinking we used for drug use in any other context we would see how ludicrous it is. In the history of humankind how we currently think about drug use is fairly recent. i can let licenced to drive all kinds of machinery and vehicles, and yet I'm banned from deciding what goes into my body for my own amusment?

Desmo
14-12-2012, 01:50 PM
There's no working answer for the world's drug problem. It's like the war on terror, it can never be won. It's all part of the human condition.


Lol.
There is no war on terror beside the terror being manufactured to dupe unthinking people.

Mo-Fo
14-12-2012, 03:10 PM
Lol.
Conspiracy.

Dragunov-21
14-12-2012, 03:31 PM
Lol.
Conspiracy.

Ever been to the US?

66
14-12-2012, 04:46 PM
I'm sorry but you are in my view entirely wrong.
Look at Amsterdam and Portugal and you'll see why decriminalisation works.
To suggest that recreational drug users should kill themselves is arrogant and extremely narrow minded.

I didn't say they should kill them selves.... Just let nature run its course.

Way back when, they all made the choice to take their first hit. At that point, I no longer give two shits for their welfare. I don't care what addiction is (let me guess, I don't know what its like.....) There was a time, when they were sober And made a concious decision.


And dragunov, yes, I do have the occasional drink.
I've never been admitted to the ER because if this.
It has never effected my job.
It has never impacted on my life, beyond the morning.

Care to tell me how I too, am a drug addicted loss to society?

66
14-12-2012, 04:47 PM
Actually desmo, explain to me why you think rec drug use is ok.

TurboR1
14-12-2012, 04:53 PM
Judging by the amount of bleeding hearts on here, I wonder how they would react to the treatment of individuals who are addicted to putting their fingers into children... It too is a mental condition not too different to a drug addiction... an illegal means to get your rocks off.

If we let lower the age of consent to 4 you think it will be the end of child molestation?


I'm sorry but you are in my view entirely wrong.
Look at Amsterdam and Portugal and you'll see why decriminalisation works.
To suggest that recreational drug users should kill themselves is arrogant and extremely narrow minded.

You say narrow minded... I say focused vision.

filbert
14-12-2012, 05:00 PM
there is a slight problem with the comparison, doing something to yourself such as sticking a needle in your arm or giving yourself lung cancer toking down cones is very different to sticking your fingers into 4 year olds, there are grey areas in life where you can be against one law without being against all law :lol:

TurboR1
14-12-2012, 05:27 PM
I see no flaws in any of my comparisons when other's compare sticking a needle full of Class 'A'synthetic junk in the same light as having a cold one at the end of the day, then posing the same question.

Guess this happens when you're not focused.

Reading this thread has only reaffirmed how little these individuals (the junkies) are and how much better the planet would be without them.

Desmo
14-12-2012, 05:33 PM
Actually desmo, explain to me why you think rec drug use is ok.

So you say you drink yet you condone other drug use. Why? Because someone has labelled it illicit?

chew
14-12-2012, 05:37 PM
They'd still be non functioning junkies because they can't do anything but get high and think about getting high again. They're useless.

There's no working answer for the world's drug problem. It's like the war on terror, it can never be won. It's all part of the human condition.

So I'll just ride my bike and look after my own and really not give too much of a shit as long as life's ok for me and my fam. It's the least I can do.

I think we are confused on the term Junkie. I classify a junkie as anyone who has an addiction to a drug, whether it be coffee, alcohol, ice or heroin. I dont care whether they are the richest lawyer in Perth or the toothless dude at the local supermarket, they are both addicts.


Actually desmo, explain to me why you think rec drug use is ok.

Again definition of rec drug, e.g. coffee, ciggies, alcohol, smack?

TurboR1
14-12-2012, 05:42 PM
So you say you drink yet you condone other drug use. Why? Because someone has labelled it illicit?

Who would rather have as your house mate, an individual that knocks back a few beers at the end of a days work, or the guy that sits in his own urine with a needle still hanging from his arm?

Same question to all the other "every life is precious" members on here.

Tiger1
14-12-2012, 05:45 PM
Again definition of rec drug, e.g. coffee, ciggies, alcohol, smack?

PSB?

TurboR1
14-12-2012, 05:46 PM
PSB?

More of an affliction really... kinda like a rash.

Desmo
14-12-2012, 06:00 PM
Who would rather have as your house mate, an individual that knocks back a few beers at the end of a days work, or the guy that sits in his own urine with a needle still hanging from his arm?

Same question to all the other "every life is precious" members on here.

Just because people use illicit drugs doesn't make them junkies sitting in pools of their own piss.
I'd have no issues sharing a house with someone who enjoyed a joint at the end of the day but I wouldn't live with an alcoholic yet by your definition the guy that enjoys a beer and a mellow high after work has no place in our society.

TurboR1
14-12-2012, 06:03 PM
Nice dodge.... and the guy who is doing heroin? or lets say Russian youth on Krokodil?

filbert
14-12-2012, 06:06 PM
i've seen the same said of motorcycle riders in reference to them being lower forms of life, apparently we know what we're getting into when we ride so if we're injured it's our own problem, why should their taxes pay for medical assistance and if we're splitting and they open a door into us or swerve it's our own fault and we deserve it for not following the rules like everyone else.

mute
14-12-2012, 06:09 PM
Nice dodge.... and the guy who is doing heroin? or lets say Russian youth on Krokodil?

I'd love to live with David Bowie, Ray Charles or Nick Cave.

shan
14-12-2012, 06:15 PM
I didn't say they should kill them selves.... Just let nature run its course.

Way back when, they all made the choice to take their first hit. At that point, I no longer give two shits for their welfare. I don't care what addiction is (let me guess, I don't know what its like.....) There was a time, when they were sober And made a concious decision.


And dragunov, yes, I do have the occasional drink.
I've never been admitted to the ER because if this.
It has never effected my job.
It has never impacted on my life, beyond the morning.

Care to tell me how I too, am a drug addicted loss to society?
Your drug is a race bike
i do hope the ER never greets you,

Mo-Fo
14-12-2012, 06:18 PM
Ever been to the US?

pffft only in my dreams.

Driving in my huge ozone destroying Chevy pickup with the General Lee flag, my 94 Winchester, shotgun under the seat and a dead hog strapped to the hood. Listening to Conway Twitty on the way to a redneck bar where me and my kin can voice our strong republican views on gay marriage, baby foetus's, suporting our troops and those God dam dirty terrorists trying to destroy our liberty and freedom.

Then drive home to watch NASCAR with a belly full of Bud and punch the wife for not having my supper on the table.

Who the fuck wouldn't want to do that?!

TurboR1
14-12-2012, 06:22 PM
We seem to be going down the road that everything the individual enjoys now seems to be a drug...

Whether it is a beer, coffee, smoke, going fast on bikes, krokodile, heroin, smoking a joint, fisting toddlers, collecting stamps, these are now all addictions. Yes very good... Fuck I hope the Mayans are right and I only need to put up with this for 7 more days.

shan
14-12-2012, 06:22 PM
Over 300 hundred million and you reckon they are all rednecks
dam your worse than the sterio type you dislike

shan
14-12-2012, 06:25 PM
We seem to be going down the road that everything the individual enjoys now seems to be a drug...

Whether it is a beer, coffee, smoke, going fast on bikes, krokodile, heroin, smoking a joint, fisting toddlers, collecting stamps, these are now all addictions. Yes very good... Fuck I hope the Mayans are right and I only need to put up with this for 7 more days.
There ain't nothin like banging midgets high on coke at 200 kmh plus in a side car, public roads of course.
Turbs I sure thought you would have tried that by now.

chew
14-12-2012, 06:28 PM
The interesting thing here is you have all worked with, lived with and socialised with "junkies" of both legal and illicit drugs and you would not know as the stigma surrounding certain harmless illicit drugs is such that those who do admit to using these drugs would be ostracised from society. So they shut their mouths and continue in silence and some fall from grace to become the junkies some despise.

Heroin would be the most harmless drug out there.

It is when it is cut and forced into the hands of entrepreneurs that it becomes dangerous. The method of use is also another major factor in the danger and that is mainly because of the price of the drug. Most opium "junkies" in china are elderly men who have provided for their families all their life.

My main point is that the "Functioning Junkies" are just as bad as the gutter junkies as they are keeping the industry profitable to the underworld that thrives on the prohibition.

If you cant understand that, maybe you are just not very worldly and need to look past your rose coloured or black and white glasses?

TurboR1
14-12-2012, 06:28 PM
There ain't nothin like banging midgets high on coke at 200 kmh plus in a side car, public roads of course.
Turbs I sure thought you would have tried that by now.

I may as well... looks like I know that I'll have the support of some on here if I do hard drugs... hell they may even like me, invite me over to fuck their sister.

Desmo
14-12-2012, 06:29 PM
Nice dodge.... and the guy who is doing heroin? or lets say Russian youth on Krokodil?

How is that a dodge, I answered your question.
I wouldn't want to share a house with any heavily addicted person.

shan
14-12-2012, 06:30 PM
I may as well... looks like I know that I'll have the support of some on here if I do hard drugs... hell they may even like me, invite me over to fuck their sister.
Dam
I thought you where certified

TurboR1
14-12-2012, 06:33 PM
How is that a dodge, I answered your question.
I wouldn't want to share a house with any heavily addicted person.

Ok then... How about a needle a night kinda guy?

Desmo
14-12-2012, 06:40 PM
Stop pretending to be stupid.

66
14-12-2012, 06:46 PM
I'd sooner share a house with someone who comes home and has a drink, than a joint, or snorts a line, shoots up, etc etc.

Sustained, regular use of pot does fuck you up. (that, or those that smoke it are just fucking retarded to start with)

Oh, and I don't need to be told (by dem gubinmint s) what drugs I can and can't take. I realise that alcohol is relatively safe, and hardly addictive when compared to many other drugs out there. Hell, I rarely meet a coffee drinker whom I don't consider an addict.

And whoever said racing is my drug... Yes and mostly no.
Riding has a high associated risk. It is not in itself harmful though. To me, or others. I will not steal lie or cheat to fuel my 'addiction' no matter how badly I want a ride. Should I decide I have had enough, I CAN quit. No patches, no rehab, no relapses.

TurboR1
14-12-2012, 06:47 PM
No seriously... you have still dodged the question... the argument has been put forward that the casual user of an illicit drug is no danger... so you tell me if a casual user of heroin (you tell me what the needle per day rate is,as I sure as fuck can't figure a formula for it) is welcome in your house with your wife and son the same as a beer drinker or a toker of the waki-tabaki.

Spina
14-12-2012, 07:23 PM
Give up Turbo, some people refute the fact that if its over the counter its ok and safe. Dont mention the fact that alot of the codeine based scripts to treat other illness has a side affect of rotting kidneys, livers, etc in the name of medicine treatments. Every day people short cut their lives through the miss information advised by medical practicioners to perscribe a drug that does as much damage as its meant to help, but as a society of sheep, we do as we are told!

Watching those videos of this epidemic is really sad, this shit is chemical grade poison imo, worse than opiates, amphetimines as the tissue destruction is horrific and the expected life span of a addict. Disease and illness are two words most people dont want to assosciate with addiction, yet I dont believe it would be to hard to stratch the surface on these indivudials to find mental/social issues in them which they would deny has having the same revelance...

Mo-Fo
14-12-2012, 07:34 PM
Over 300 hundred million and you reckon they are all rednecks
dam your worse than the sterio type you dislike
lol shan I think you may have taken my post a little seriously ^_^

filbert
14-12-2012, 07:39 PM
lol shan I think you may have taken my post a little seriously ^_^

there seems to be a bit of that going around :lol:

keys
14-12-2012, 07:54 PM
We seem to be going down the road that everything the individual enjoys now seems to be a drug...

Whether it is a beer, coffee, smoke, going fast on bikes, krokodile, heroin, smoking a joint, fisting toddlers, collecting stamps, these are now all addictions. Yes very good... Fuck I hope the Mayans are right and I only need to put up with this for 7 more days.


I was talking to a Buddhist today he told me those Mayans are full of shit , They at year 2556 nothing happened in 2012 :lol:

Desmo
14-12-2012, 08:15 PM
Sustained, regular use of pot does fuck you up. (that, or those that smoke it are just fucking retarded to start with)


You know a while ago when we had our issues because I was under the impression that you were a silly little boy with no life experiences and a very naive viewpoint on things?
Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Desmo
14-12-2012, 08:18 PM
No seriously... you have still dodged the question... the argument has been put forward that the casual user of an illicit drug is no danger... so you tell me if a casual user of heroin (you tell me what the needle per day rate is,as I sure as fuck can't figure a formula for it) is welcome in your house with your wife and son the same as a beer drinker or a toker of the waki-tabaki.

You do realise that intravenous application of drugs is only one of many options, right?
But no, someone who habitually takes H would not be welcome in my house.

66
14-12-2012, 08:33 PM
Ok desmo...

I've never witnessed the prolonged effects of drug use. Pot or otherwise. I have absolutely no experience in this matter. I've never even met a social user or an addict! Hell, I haven't even seen someone going through rehab, and cleaning up their act before relapsing again, and again. I've not seen people who have been smoking for so long, causally, that their very ability to think logically, and maintain anything that resembles a functioning memory.

I'm just a silly little boy with no life experience.

Maxo
16-12-2012, 03:07 PM
I'd sooner share a house with someone who comes home and has a drink, than a joint, or snorts a line, shoots up, etc etc.

Sustained, regular use of pot does fuck you up. (that, or those that smoke it are just fucking retarded to start with).


more recent studies with better controls have still found an increase in risk for psychosis in cannabis users, albeit a more modest one.[11] It is still not clear whether this is a causal link, and it is possible that cannabis use only increases the chance of psychosis in people already predisposed to it; or that people with developing psychosis use cannabis to provide temporary relief of their mental discomfort. Cannabis use has increased dramatically over past few decades but declined in the last decade, whereas the rate of psychosis has not increased. This suggests that a direct causal link is unlikely for all users.
Have a read:
Substance-induced psychosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance-induced_psychosis)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Drug_danger_and_dependence.svg/800px-Drug_danger_and_dependence.svg.png


I've never even met a social user or an addict! Hell, I haven't even seen someone going through rehab, and cleaning up their act before relapsing again, and again.

Then i'm sure if you have all this experience with people that have substance abuse problems, you'd sooner turn your back on a pothead than you would on any else of the above. Especially a nightly drunk.

Ever had a friend mix benzo's and jack daniels? a casual amount.
I'd sooner live with the stupidest, memory-incapable stoner for several years than have to deal with another night of a dellusional housemate.

In short, go work in a nightclub. Come back and tell me how much easier drunks are to deal with than everyone else.

Ev
16-12-2012, 06:43 PM
http://www.dpmp.unsw.edu.au/DPMPWeb.nsf/resources/DPMP%2BMonographs1/$file/DPMP%2BMONO%2B1.pdf

This is a nice graph I found on what Drugs cost Australia

8057280572

Do you like your taxes or mine? spent wisely? would you like a bigger tax refund? Taxes spent on better things?

Would you like to see less desperate people on drugs causing crime?

In 2003 the government spent over $1.3 Billion on a drug war.

As a result of that war on drugs, drugs cost approximately 100X more than their actual production value, creating significantly more drug related crime and by this research $1.9 Billion.

If we didn't spend a cent of tax on a drug crusade what is the worst that could happen given the current numbers?

Would it not take 100X the number of junkies to create the same current issues?

The countries that have decriminalized drugs have maintained fairly similar drug abuse stats!

Would the sky really fall if we decriminalised?

Dragunov-21
17-12-2012, 10:19 AM
I'd still like to know what willingness to have something happen in your house or around your kids has to do with what needs to be made criminal.

Or why it's so hard to believe that someone partakes once a month or year.

Or why "class A" means shit to Turbs when psilocybe mushrooms are class A, are not toxic in amounts able to be claimed, have next to no social cost compared to almost any other recreational substance and are being trialled medically in a number of applications. (well, schedule one, technically)

Fergie90
17-12-2012, 09:00 PM
Of all the drugs, it should be alcohol that is banned. Just sayin'

David Nutt: Alcohol More Dangerous Than Crack - HealthPop - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20021311-10391704.html)

TurboR1
17-12-2012, 11:14 PM
I'll drink to that.... hic.