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Cbr1k
16-01-2007, 09:58 AM
I didn't get a picture, but riding to work today someone had strung a huge banner over one of the pedestrain bridge over the Fwy saying Police Officer **** **** RAPIST.

Someone wants to get the message out! :blink:

EMVY
16-01-2007, 10:02 AM
Saw that as he was hanging it up...couldn't read it though

Hope the guy as plenty of proof or he will get in deep shit.
Think he will anyway

Triple Treat
17-01-2007, 06:45 AM
The sign was about the guy who got killed by the cops in Floreat I think, They were talking about it on 6PR yesterday.

PHOBiA
17-01-2007, 07:14 AM
the dumb fuck put it up backwards on monday so you couldn't read it.

Desmo
17-01-2007, 08:20 AM
Hahahaha,
You have to love it.
Guy gets in chase. Guy drives home.
Guy runs inside and grabs a carving knife.
Retard stabs cop and gets shot.
Then the family and media cry foul.
SHUT THE FUCK UP AND DEAL WITH IT.
ffs.

Trev
17-01-2007, 08:34 AM
I feel sorry for the copper, and the poor mentally ill fella.

More of a sad statement on the support, care and treatment for those that are mentally ill. Until a mental illness affects somebody close to you and you see the effect it has on them you really have no understanding. I have only seen the effects of one of the least significant mental illnesses on a loved one and it certainly wakes you up, is very scary shit. Especially when you see it in your best mate, someone who was successful with great wife, kids, house and always the most popular bloke universally liked by everyone (especially the girls). He is over it now and has it all under control without drugs and everything but out of the blue a few years ago he started having panic attacks. We would be having a beer or whatever, could just happen any time, and he would crumble into a ball and start rapid breathing and stuff. I have never felt so bloody hopeless in my life, you just had to wait for him to get it back under control and even he wouldn't know what brought it on or that it was coming etc. It was also very scary as it was like well for fuck sake, if this can happen to him, it can happen to anyone. Brought it all home to me in a new light, wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Triple Treat
17-01-2007, 09:14 AM
I know exactly what you mean Trev, very scarey indeed. This Guy was apparently Bipolar, Einstein was also bipolar, as with many other high achievers in our history.

To be killed by a gun because of a disease you have is very sad and I have know answer for how the police can deal with this as I'm sure they were well unaware of his condition and they cannot be expected to treat everyone as they are sick..or should they?

Sunshine & F'n Rainbows
17-01-2007, 09:21 AM
To be killed by a gun because of a disease you have is very sad[/b]

Yes, so is stabbing a fucking cop. <_<

Some deadweight piece of shit in the West yesterday wrote in to suggest the police should have disarmed him with "martial arts". I defy anybody to take a knife from a crazy, fired up bastard without getting themselves royally messed up as well.

I imagined the stupid prick writing the letter while lazily chewing an iced vovo, beslippered feet resting on a weathered footstool and a copy of the unfinished weekly crossword from 1962 sitting on his lap. The kind of guy so out of touch with what really goes on that he thinks the boys in blue only need to show up and brandish a shiny club for the &#39;bad guys&#39; to give up their wicked ways.

Trev
17-01-2007, 09:31 AM
I agree that it is perfectly understandable that the copper shot the fella. You raise a fist to a copper you desever to get shot, let alone a knife. Far out if I was a copper, I would be shooting lots of pricks, LOL.

I was only making the point that is very sad for the poor fella that he was obviously not given the treatment and care that he should have. Poor bugger.

I imagine the copper is gutted at having killed the fella too, I feel sorry for both of them.

g0zer
17-01-2007, 10:36 AM
It is part of the job description for cops to deal with these kinds of situations and Im sure their SOP isnt &#39;1. pull out glock and keep shooting till the person stops moving&#39;. They are carrying firearms for self defence not for enforcement.

the cops misread the situation and thats why one ended up in a swimming pool while their partner got stabbed. Getting beat up and stabbed when they had the drop on the guy 2 vs 1 was hopelessly incompetent. And the result of that screw-up was one of the cops ended up having to defend themselves with lethal force and a mentally ill person died.

people with mentally ill family members or friends will all be rushing to call for assistance when things go pear shaped after this one.

Triple Treat
17-01-2007, 10:37 AM
Yes, so is stabbing a fucking cop. <_<

Some deadweight piece of shit in the West yesterday wrote in to suggest the police should have disarmed him with "martial arts". I defy anybody to take a knife from a crazy, fired up bastard without getting themselves royally messed up as well.

I imagined the stupid prick writing the letter while lazily chewing an iced vovo, beslippered feet resting on a weathered footstool and a copy of the unfinished weekly crossword from 1962 sitting on his lap. The kind of guy so out of touch with what really goes on that he thinks the boys in blue only need to show up and brandish a shiny club for the &#39;bad guys&#39; to give up their wicked ways.[/b]


I here what you are saying, I have been stabbed a couple times, once I had my main vein from my brain to my heart slashed, on a main road in peak hour by a drunk aboriginal, no one stopped to help, gutless pricks, lucky I had a mate with me, he was fighting one of the other ones, I almost died, closest time ever, and if you know me you will know how bad that is, had to be rushed by police escort in an ambulance to RPH for life saving micro surgery.

If I had a chance to go back, there is no way I would wish to have a gun, I wouldn&#39;t want a single weapon bar my fist&#39;s and feet. There are orderly&#39;s in mental hospitals that handle these people everyday without guns, and sometimes the patients get hold of weapons, I don&#39;t see them shooting anyone but put a gun in their hands and I bet one will eventually...

I do feel for the police officer as I&#39;m sure it was just a natural reaction for him at the time but I bet he wishes he handled it differently now.

tweeklz
17-01-2007, 11:29 AM
What don&#39;t they equip cops with tasers before guns, or both?

Either way more than 1 life was lost that day, and nothing can change that.

Boxx
17-01-2007, 11:36 AM
This is why i take everything i read and see in the media with a very reserved opinion.
Someone reads an article in the newspaper and they&#39;re posting banners calling a cop a rapist.

None of us, including the journalist who wrote the article were there at the time. We don&#39;t know exactly what happened or more importantly how it happened. So none of us are in any position to make any sort of judgement. Maybe two cops not being enough to subdue one offender was incompetence, maybe it wasn&#39;t.
Maybe this guy was wielding a machete but the media called it a knife so as to emphasise the fact he is a victim. maybe he wasn&#39;t. Maybe the cop stabbed himself to make it look like there was more of a struggle, maybe he didn&#39;t.

I wasn&#39;t there so i have no grounds to speculate.

The bottom line is someone attacked a police officer and was shot.

Welcome to life.

Sunshine & F'n Rainbows
17-01-2007, 12:06 PM
I was only making the point that is very sad for the poor fella that he was obviously not given the treatment and care that he should have.[/b]

You can lead a horse to water, can&#39;t make it drink.

I&#39;ve known quite a few people with psych issues, and a couple of pretty severe bipolar ones. Problem is they&#39;re force-fed some meds, then they feel better.. when they feel better, they don&#39;t take the meds, so they get &#39;bad&#39; again.

You can&#39;t just commit anybody, they won&#39;t commit themselves because they&#39;re not healthy enough to make that judgement call and they can&#39;t control their meds because they feel they don&#39;t need them when it&#39;s the meds making them feel somewhat normal in the first place.

The solution would be to forcefully administer meds, and that&#39;s fairly cruel and unusual in itself. It&#39;s a viscious cycle.



It is part of the job description for cops to deal with these kinds of situations and Im sure their SOP isnt &#39;1. pull out glock and keep shooting till the person stops moving&#39;. They are carrying firearms for self defence not for enforcement.[/b]
No it&#39;s not, but when confronted with an armed, angry gentleman, their options are whittled down very, very quickly.


the cops misread the situation and thats why one ended up in a swimming pool while their partner got stabbed. Getting beat up and stabbed when they had the drop on the guy 2 vs 1 was hopelessly incompetent. And the result of that screw-up was one of the cops ended up having to defend themselves with lethal force and a mentally ill person died.[/b]
You were on the scene taking notes then? You would have rather they waited until the agressor stabbed both of them? So, after pursuing this guy, watching him drive through a fence, then run into the property to arm himself before coming out and attempting to actually put that weapon inside you by force, what would you have done? What should they have used? Harsh languange?


people with mentally ill family members or friends will all be rushing to call for assistance when things go pear shaped after this one.
[/b]
How many people with mentally ill family members will be calling for assistance because their psychologically challenged chum stole a car and started stabbing people?

Cry, river, etc.


What don&#39;t they equip cops with tasers before guns, or both? [/b]
Only speculation, but I&#39;m guessing there&#39;s a few reasons.

Cost of upkeep is probably one, guns are (comparatively) dirt cheap to purchase and maintain. The effectiveness of tazers can be somewhat limited too. Great, you&#39;re confronted with five people and two cops. Two can be tazed for a few seconds while the other two offenders kick your heads in.

The TRG do carry a range of non-lethal weapons, but as a general purpose tool they&#39;re probably a bit toothless, and a bit expensive.

I know they&#39;ve become more popular with police in the USA, who carry them in addition to firearms, I imagine it will go that way down here eventually.

Captain Starfish
17-01-2007, 12:18 PM
It is part of the job description for cops to deal with these kinds of situations and Im sure their SOP isnt &#39;1. pull out glock and keep shooting till the person stops moving&#39;.
[/b]

Sadly, modifications are being made to the targets in the Victorian Police ranges soon. Currently they will fall down if hit once or double tapped. The modification - stay up until the full clip is emptied into them.

Apparently a copper shot someone going after him a while ago, thought he was down but then got a nasty surprise when the guy shot him back :(

Mind you, the Vic pleece have had a bit of a reputation in years gone past for their unique interpretation of "you have the right to remain silent, unmoving and rapidly cooling".

:blink:

Cbr1k
17-01-2007, 12:35 PM
I agree with Trev. Mental Illness is dangerously underfunded in this country. Events like this will keep on happening. It is terrible to see a loved one in such a state. Quite often there is nothing that can be done as people get turned away from places because of underfunding. They usually aren&#39;t taken off the streets until something bad happens which by then is too late.

It would have cost the government $50k to take this guy off the street and give him the care he needs for a year. Now they will spend far more than that in investigations etc. :down:

g0zer
17-01-2007, 12:41 PM
Sadly, modifications are being made to the targets in the Victorian Police ranges soon. Currently they will fall down if hit once or double tapped. The modification - stay up until the full clip is emptied into them.

:blink:
[/b]

If the cops are going to be carrying firearms they absolutely should be well trained in the correct use of them. Its pretty damned hard to score hits on a fast moving target while ensuring that you arent about to lay waste to an innocent bystander who is 100m behind your target. This is what im saying, ie: firearms pulled in a panic situations and unloaded in suburbia is last resort stuff.


You were on the scene taking notes then?[/b]
So you are saying there was nothing these officers could have been done better then?

Taylor
17-01-2007, 12:47 PM
So, after pursuing this guy, watching him drive through a fence, then run into the property to arm himself before coming out and attempting to actually put that weapon inside you by force, what would you have done? What should they have used? Harsh languange? [/b]

Empty the magazine at the attacking person&#39;s knee region. You only need one hit, you might miss a whole lot but no stray bullets go flying into homes. Then call ambulance and draw nightstick, if knife is still held, break wrist with nightstick. Comfort the attacker until help arrives.

Seriously, shooting someone who is attacking you and asking why later is well... an impact to a critical load bearing joint is enough to stop someone from advancing on you. I&#39;m sure the officer knew that but was so overwhelmed with emotion when his partner was stabbed that he, not so much wanted revenge, but wouldn&#39;t hold any good intentions to the suspect.

Sunshine & F'n Rainbows
17-01-2007, 12:57 PM
Empty the magazine at the attacking person&#39;s knee region.[/b]
Have you ever been shooting? It&#39;s bloody hard to hit something knee-sized, while moving yourself. I&#39;d imagine that difficulty is compounded when you&#39;re also trying to avoid getting injured yourself.

The torso is a much, much easier target to hit. There&#39;s a lot of awfully good reasons to aim for it.


You only need one hit, you might miss a whole lot but no stray bullets go flying into homes.[/b]
No, but aiming for something like a guys knee is a pretty good way to lose a few shots into somebodys house / car / pet cat / etc.


Then call ambulance and draw nightstick, if knife is still held, break wrist with nightstick.[/b]
Then some bleeding heart would come out and cry about brutality "Waaaah, he was already down, why did he had to be hit again.. waaaaaah".... <_<

Can&#39;t please everybody. At least go and take a look at what is involved in properly handling a firearm, then see why ideas like "shoot him in the knees" only work in movies.


So you are saying there was nothing these officers could have been done better then?
[/b]

Chap tried to put a piece of steel inside an officer without his consent and this action was responded to with, what I would deem, appropriate force. The idea being that one guy was doing his job and is potentially a rather valuable member of society. The other was making a great attempt to wound and possibly kill him.

Desmo
17-01-2007, 12:57 PM
http://www.nexternal.com/taser/images/x26c021.jpg

Job done.

sathid
17-01-2007, 01:09 PM
I remember back in the thread about "your plan" if someone broke into your house.
An awful lot said they&#39;d shoot first ask questions later.

To some degree this is exactly the same. For all we know, the guy was hiding and jumped out at the officer, stabbing him, and got shot for it.

My question is, if the guy was that unstable, why hadn&#39;t anyone reported it or gotten him help.

Taylor
17-01-2007, 01:12 PM
The RAAF taught me to shoot. Lethal force is a cop-out, always. It makes the whole thing pointless.

Triple Treat
17-01-2007, 01:13 PM
^^ I can see Desmo attaching one of those to his <strike>X wing</strike>, sorry R1....lookout! :D

xphread
17-01-2007, 01:36 PM
My question is, if the guy was that unstable, why hadn&#39;t anyone reported it or gotten him help.
[/b]Its definately not as simple as that.
I guess its largely related to what others have touched on in regards to lack of funding/support related to mental illness.

The help available is minimal at best. And usually would be classed as laughable if it wasnt such a bad situation.
It usually ends up "cry-able" for those with friends/family members who are affected.
The parents I know have basically given up their own lives to try and care for their son, because letting the system help is much worse for him. (Its very complex and I wont go into details)

I have only had recent experience with care for someone with mental illness issues.
Some of the stories and experiences in relation to getting help from our health system have made me very angry, astounded and ashamed that that is all we have available in a "rich" & "advanced" country.

I feel helpless already and I havent had to live with it for 20+ years. :(

EMVY
17-01-2007, 01:38 PM
Cost of upkeep is probably one, guns are (comparatively) dirt cheap to purchase and maintain. The effectiveness of tazers can be somewhat limited too. Great, you&#39;re confronted with five people and two cops. Two can be tazed for a few seconds while the other two offenders kick your heads in.
[/b]
When was the last time a police officer in Australia had to take a shot at more than one person?
Fortunately, we don&#39;t have gun battles here yet (fingers crossed).
If there were 4-5 people, the sight of one person getting tazered would probably put 99.99% of people off having a go at the officer.
I don&#39;t know why they can&#39;t just shoot someone in the leg?
Largest body mass obviously has a higher chance of being hit but I would rather a cop took five shots at my leg than one at my chest

Taylor
17-01-2007, 01:54 PM
I don&#39;t know why they can&#39;t just shoot someone in the leg?
Largest body mass obviously has a higher chance of being hit but I would rather a cop took five shots at my leg than one at my chest
[/b]

that&#39;s it right there.

sathid
17-01-2007, 02:06 PM
except that if you are the one attacking them, I really dont think "what you would prefer" is of particular concern or relevance.

lol

EMVY
17-01-2007, 02:13 PM
except that if you are the one attacking them, I really dont think "what you would prefer" is of particular concern or relevance.
[/b]
Agreed...but this would be something taught to them
Something along the lines of preserving human life

A murderer can be given LIFE in prison but another person can be executed without a trial?

Melkor
17-01-2007, 02:13 PM
Largest body mass obviously has a higher chance of being hit but I would rather a cop took five shots at my leg than one at my chest
[/b]

yeah then the bullet passes through your leg completely (or misses it) and hits poor old mrs smith. The chances of this happening outway the chance that the offender dying due to shot to the centre of mass.

Seriously to have a police officer fire upon you they require that you are threatening anyother peron&#39;s life and that you have intent, motive, oportunity and ability to do so AND they require to asses if there is any other means nessisary that could preclude the use of a firearm.

If not, then they will fire upon centre of mass, to ensure the greatest chance of stopping the target and preventing any other person from being injured by passthrough, ricochet or a missed shot.

We don&#39;t know of the full story but it was reported early that the officer was already stabbed once before he fired.

Anyone that stabs a police officer, mentally capable or not, risks being shot. It&#39;s like doing a wheelie. Do the crime do the time, dont go crying about it.

Rocket
17-01-2007, 02:15 PM
I didn&#39;t get a picture, but riding to work today someone had strung a huge banner over one of the pedestrain bridge over the Fwy saying Police Officer **** **** RAPIST.

Someone wants to get the message out! :blink:
[/b]

Soooo, what has all this chat about the guy getting shot got to do with the banner accusing the copper of being a rapist ?
Fucken good on them whoever it is.
I&#39;d put a sign up every week in different locations around perth, write it in brake fluid on his car, the front of his house, his forhead with a nailgun.
Low low low lowlife piece of dog shit deserves to be mutilated in the worst possible way.

of course, if he&#39;s not guilty...then, sorry mate ! No hard feelings aye ?
Sucks for you.

Gryphen
17-01-2007, 02:24 PM
The RAAF taught me to shoot. Lethal force is a cop-out, always. It makes the whole thing pointless.
[/b]

Aww c&#39;mon they taught you to shoot at man-size... maybe bullseyes on controlled/timed but snap shoots were man-size targets. If you used the 9mm pistol, and it was a snap shot, then you were always hoping that you hit the target... somewhere, not a particualr spot. RAAF never taught you to shoot for extremties either, always for centre of mass.

Reading about all this made me think of the old comment about taking a knife to a gun-fight....

Desmo
17-01-2007, 02:26 PM
and hits poor old mrs smith.
[/b]

http://www.cineclub.de/images/2005/07/mr-and-mrs-smith-1.jpg

I&#39;d hit it too.

Chaingang
17-01-2007, 02:30 PM
If any of you actually KNEW Dan Rolf, you would understand why there is such a mass of incomprehension among friends and family.

This guy was one of the cruziest, laid back dudes I have ever met, with one of the most eccentric clothing styles possible, definitely a retro king. I mean...the Hip-E club is this man&#39;s personality encompassed in a night-time venue.

I could not believe the story when I heard that it was him and heard the media reports of what transpired. If he did have bi-polar disorder, I never saw the &#39;other&#39; side of him. I cant comment on why he did what he apparently did, all thats to be said is.... RIP dude (there&#39;s waves up there) and at the same time condolences to the officer involved.

:blink:

Bunyack
17-01-2007, 02:52 PM
Agreed...but this would be something taught to them
Something along the lines of preserving human life
A murderer can be given LIFE in prison but another person can be executed without a trial?
[/b]
preserving human life?? like what the guy with the knife was doing when he stabbed the cop??

The cops arnt going to ask for a medical certificate when there is someone running at them, armed with a weapon, and with intent to harm.

Yes its a shame that the guy had a mental disorder but the police were forced to take him down when he demonstrated that he was intending to harm the coppers.

Ok, so maybe the cops did discover he was bi-polar when they were chasing him in the car, but a dude weilding a knife, stabbing people........ still need to take him down

Chaingang
17-01-2007, 03:01 PM
lol.....I&#39;m back in texas....yee hawww!!

All these comments are based on what the media/police say. On one hand, we write off the "worst australian" and &#39;today tonight&#39; for sensationalising stories about us "hooning motorcyclists", but then in this case....yea...perfect documentation of events. You think?

Now i&#39;m not suggesting anything else has happened, but then again....the other side of the story also died that day.

:blink:

mikey_R6
17-01-2007, 03:03 PM
What don&#39;t they equip cops with tasers before guns, or both?
[/b]

if you can reach him with a tazer, he can reach you with a knife. so not much help once you&#39;ve been stabbed. the shoot-out-over-a-distance ones are a good idea though. cops probably wish they had them.

anyway, i am so sick of hearing about people saying that a cop shouldn&#39;t be able to defend himself when he gets attacked by a maniac with a knife. the cop is trying to do his job. his job is to protect the public and someone tries to kill him while he&#39;s protecting the public, then the public gets on him for defending himself. jesus. no wonder we can&#39;t get enough coppers recruited.

then people say "disarm him with martial arts" or "shoot him in the leg" or some crap. people who say this have clearly done no martial arts or weapons training and don&#39;t know what they are talking about. having done both over a period of several years i can tell you that both of those options are potentially fatal to the person trying to pull them off! you&#39;ll never hit someone&#39;s knee when they and you are moving. it&#39;s just too risky and unlikely to work - the most likely result is they make it to you and stick the blade in... as you die bleeding you can think "at least i didn&#39;t hurt him". then there&#39;s martial arts... we do a lot of knife work in my JJ school and even my instructor says "expect to get hurt when someone comes at you with a knife. if he knows what he&#39;s doing with the knife, you&#39;re going to be bleeding from somewhere at the end. even if you &#39;win&#39; in the end, the best you can usually hope for is to avoid a *bad* cut on the way."

so no, you can&#39;t just shoot someone in the leg like in the movies. and you can&#39;t just disarm a knife-wielding attacker as easy as steven seagal in the movies.

if you launch a potentially fatal attack on someone holding a gun, expect to eat lead. even if you are usually the nicest guy in the world.

and no this doesn&#39;t mean i dont understand mental illness or don&#39;t care. i don&#39;t know if the mental health system is good or bad or whatever. but either way, if you attack a cop...

Bunyack
17-01-2007, 03:04 PM
I dont think the police would have any reason to fabricate a story involving someone coming at them with a knife because it more than likely did happen

Chaingang
17-01-2007, 03:12 PM
if you launch a potentially fatal attack on someone holding a gun, expect to eat lead. even if you are usually the nicest guy in the world.

[/b]

I totally agree...all i&#39;m saying is I couldnt believe it when i heard he&#39;d done it, coz he didnt seem like the kind. If so...like you say...what did he expect?

perdition
17-01-2007, 04:29 PM
aaaah yes the first arm chair warrior loaded with hindsight......were you there, got a video of the whole, then perhaps stfu until you know the full story

no its not , there are a number of options open to them, but they can be precluded from using them

yep self-defence, last time i looked being stabbed counted as self defense

the guy ended up in the pool trying to get out of the house with rofle chasing him with a knife , no one got beat up.

the drop on the guy huh, pehaps you can show us all how you take a knife off a guy with out getting cut up in the process

hopelessly imcompentant, by all means please show us how its done

for the record, baton vs knife dont bother you&#39;ll get cut unless you are very good with the baton

pepper spray is not a instant reaction thing against pysched up people or drug affected people, some people it doesnt have a effect on at all.

taser - only limited numbers available (ie not everyone has one) and again ot always effective in a rush type situation like this one.

dont even get me started on shoot him in the legs, works for hollywood not in real life

what i&#39;d like to know is where were all his so called mates and his family when he going knifey, why then did they do anything to stop him....then again i wasnt there so perhaps i should stfu.......

actually they will call the police coz you try finding a doctor or PETS at 3am on a monday morning or 10pm on a sunday...and thats a big part of the problem....




It is part of the job description for cops to deal with these kinds of situations and Im sure their SOP isnt &#39;1. pull out glock and keep shooting till the person stops moving&#39;. They are carrying firearms for self defence not for enforcement.

the cops misread the situation and thats why one ended up in a swimming pool while their partner got stabbed. Getting beat up and stabbed when they had the drop on the guy 2 vs 1 was hopelessly incompetent. And the result of that screw-up was one of the cops ended up having to defend themselves with lethal force and a mentally ill person died.

people with mentally ill family members or friends will all be rushing to call for assistance when things go pear shaped after this one.
[/b]

Daise
17-01-2007, 04:30 PM
More of a sad statement on the support, care and treatment for those that are mentally ill. [/b]

The worst thing is the system won&#39;t do anything until it&#39;s too late. And then the rehab and the reconstruction of life post-breakdown is VERY hard, and at times unforgiving.




This Guy was apparently Bipolar[/b]

Bipolar is a fkn SCARY mental illness. My mother has Bipolar and Schizophrenia



You can lead a horse to water, can&#39;t make it drink.

The solution would be to forcefully administer meds, and that&#39;s fairly cruel and unusual in itself. It&#39;s a viscious cycle.
[/b]

That&#39;s so true. The affected people do the right thing whilst being watched, and as soon as they fall off the system, they go off their meds and decide that they know what&#39;s best for themselves. All it takes is a minor disruption in their life to send them spiralling.

We could talk about ways to help the mentally ill, but it would never happen.

When I was 15 I helped ARAFMI write a book educating kids about mental illness. I read heaps of stories written by kids who&#39;s parents/siblings have mental illnesses, and it was some of the most traumatic things I&#39;ve ever read.

Unfortunatley there&#39;s no public education in regards to mental illness. When I tell people mum has Schizophrenia people say "multiple personalities??". I think the more educated people are about mental illness, the more looked after mentally ill people will be.

I&#39;ve seen my mother run at cops with a knife. I&#39;ve seen her tackled to the ground by THREE cops. I&#39;ve seen her more than 3 times been taken away in the back of a police van. And to think that could&#39;ve been her shot instead of treated makes me sick to the stomach.

EMVY
17-01-2007, 04:30 PM
Words
[/b]
Thanks for that :thumbsup:
It&#39;s good to know the only way someone can be stopped is to kill them

Maybe the police should get rid of speed cameras and just start shooting people breaking the speed limit as they are fully aware they are speeding and could kill someone *sarcasm*

I&#39;m not saying not to defend yourself and I&#39;m not saying the officer did anything wrong, but I do wonder if he could have done something differently.

Police are supposedly trained professionals and surely killing someone is a last resort

But as was said, I wasn&#39;t there so I don&#39;t know. All speculation from here sadly

Infusi0n
17-01-2007, 05:03 PM
Mental Illness sufferers in australia are regarded by pollies as the last people who should get funding.

mikey_R6
17-01-2007, 05:46 PM
It&#39;s good to know the only way someone can be stopped is to kill them
[/b]
didn&#39;t say that. nor do i agree with it. if the cops had some non-lethal but RELIABLE way of taking someone down from a distance, that would be heaps better surely. i think in this case though, if it went down how it sounds, the cop wsn&#39;t left with many choices that didn&#39;t have large risks of his injury or death in them...


Maybe the police should get rid of speed cameras and just start shooting people breaking the speed limit as they are fully aware they are speeding and could kill someone *sarcasm*
[/b]
yeah, i know you&#39;re just being sarcastic, but i guess the difference is the intent.


I&#39;m not saying not to defend yourself and I&#39;m not saying the officer did anything wrong, but I do wonder if he could have done something differently.
[/b]
me too. but we&#39;ll never know i suppose. like i said above, some non-lethal ranged weapon would be better probably.


Police are supposedly trained professionals and surely killing someone is a last resort
[/b]
totally agree. definitely a last resort. but sometimes last resorts get taken.


But as was said, I wasn&#39;t there so I don&#39;t know. All speculation from here sadly
[/b]
yep, spot on there, i agree. a real shame in the end, so many things could have been just a little different and nobody would have had to be attacked or get shot or whatever

g0zer
18-01-2007, 07:06 AM
what i&#39;d like to know is where were all his so called mates and his family when he going knifey, why then did they do anything to stop him....then again i wasnt there so perhaps i should stfu.......[/b]

maybe it was not hopelessly incompetant but an unavoidable tragedy?

a lot of people dont seem to have a problem with defending themselves against the mentally ill
try this one:

hey there is this guy, talking funny and not listening to anything anyone tells him like he is deaf. Can you send an officer to come down and sort him out? He is easy to recognize face is all pushed in like one of those downs syndrome kids and is acting all retarded?&#39;

euphoric
18-01-2007, 10:22 AM
Agree with corks on STFU, unless we know. All the focus on the shooter and stabber though, someone stabs, someone shoots in response all sounds like the way it&#39;s meant to work. if someone plunging a blade into me, i gonna go for hardcore response if i dont wanna give the guy time to withdraw blade and have another go where i might not be so lucky.

What I wonder about is the other cop who ended up in pool and where he at. again i have no freaking idea, however.

Chasing a fleeing offender into a house with no idea of whats in there? getting chased out by offender and into a pool?
watching his partner get stabbed and then the offender get shot? that a lot of what ifs there. anyone willing to work with that guy?

block
18-01-2007, 10:27 AM
let me ask a question

If you were the cop and had a gun, pepper spray and batton strapped to your waist and someone stabbed you... you had a thought about your family, friends at what not. Which one would you reach for? Where would you aim? I know i&#39;d be going for the trusty gun and aiming for the biggest thing in front of me.

If the other guy has a mental illness or not... i&#39;m gonna be the one going home tonight.

Lets also suggest that maybe the cop didn&#39;t want to kill him. I&#39;m sure the first thing he did after shooting was call for an ambo and try to render assistance. Not every shooting is fatal

perdition
18-01-2007, 02:34 PM
it can work out the other way

went to a job today in morley about 0830- naked man smashing his house up , get there and he&#39;s in his back yard yelling and swearing and throwing himself around.

i took the pepper spray out (just in case) and approached him, but was able to calm him down and get him into the van and take him to charlies for assessment , couldnt get him to put any clothes on tho.

no violence and no real aggro

worked out that way today !!!!

another time, another place and the closest ive ever come to shooting a guy - he was a paranoid schizophrenic and he had 2 of he biggest ferking knives ive ever seen
and he was gonna kill us for being "satans whores" , but we(5) jumped when 1 of us was able to distract him - he then turned the knife on himself and we then had to fight him to stop stabbing himself.........

20, 15, 10, years ago - there were no tazers , no pepper spray, no long or extendy batons - just big torches and guns

thumbs up to daise on her post too btw -

xphread
18-01-2007, 03:00 PM
If you were the cop and had a gun, pepper spray and batton strapped to your waist ... Which one would you reach for? Where would you aim? I know i&#39;d be going for the trusty gun and aiming for the biggest thing in front of me.[/b]Maybe thats why the British police arent given guns?

That way the force consists of less grunts who "gut react" and make situations worse?

just a thought?


PS - Not saying this was the case here - just in regards to attitudes in general. (think redneck yank cop stereotypes... I gotta gun. Im a law unto myself.)

perdition
18-01-2007, 03:36 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(block @ Jan 18 2007, 10:27 AM) 399117
If you were the cop and had a gun, pepper spray and batton strapped to your waist ... Which one would you reach for? Where would you aim? I know i&#39;d be going for the trusty gun and aiming for the biggest thing in front of me.[/b]Maybe thats why the British police arent given guns?

That way the force consists of less grunts who "gut react" and make situations worse?

just a thought?


PS - Not saying this was the case here - just in regards to attitudes in general. (think redneck yank cop stereotypes... I gotta gun. Im a law unto myself.)
[/b][/quote]

and maybe thats why 2 unarmd wpc&#39;s got shot (1 dead, 1 wounded) at a recent holdup, why they are being issued with stab proof vests........

cYcLoNe
18-01-2007, 08:15 PM
4 rounds, how many in the legs..? wotever.

CitizenErased
18-01-2007, 08:36 PM
4 rounds, how many in the legs..? wotever.[/b]



I hate you.

Eukanuba
18-01-2007, 08:42 PM
Ok, I&#39;m gonna add my 2c plus gst...

For what it&#39;s worth, I think the cop did the best to defend himself given he had a KNIFE stuck in him.. ( just remember that, he shot after being stabbed )

He obviously only shot the guy because he thought he was going to die or this whacko was going to finish him off..

Now, I ask you - how many of you go to work and fear.. and I mean REALLY fear that you may not come home cos some whacko nutjob could stick you with a knife ?

Seriously..

If you have the lack of common sense, or the mental instability to realise that sticking a cop with a butchers knife is not going to get your a love slap or tickle on the pavement while he slips the cuffs on you.. then you need to up your meds..

I reckon the cop did the right thing, and should have put the prick down before he got the knife in the chest.. tazer, spray or gun.. whatever stops em..

Mental illness is a government issue, like healthcare and roads.. it&#39;s a big problem.. but not a problem that the already overworked police should have to deal with.. I mean, FFS - they already have a pretty shitty job.. let&#39;s not make it any harder than it already is..

I have a really good friend who is schitzophrenic, with his proper medication - you&#39;d never know any the wiser.. when he told me he had this condition.. he thought i&#39;d be freaked.. all I asked him was " Do the voices tell you the winning lotto numbers ? and can they keep you company on boring car rides ? " he pissed himself laughing and we&#39;ve never discussed it since..

Lets put it in perspective here.. the media are twisting it up again for the sake of a story.. sure, it&#39;s a shame that the guy died.. but how often do people in W.A. get toasted by cops ? I couldn&#39;t fill 5 fingers with examples.. whereas if you were in Victoria.. well...

Sunshine & F'n Rainbows
18-01-2007, 09:13 PM
4 rounds, how many in the legs..? wotever.[/b]

Do we need to cover how difficult and ineffective it is to try and shoot somebody in the legs one more time for the slow kids at the back of the class?

Wedge
18-01-2007, 10:27 PM
My 2c, i remember reading a report recently of a death in America from someone who was shot with a Tazer, brings in all sorts of
ramifcations as they cant guantee a safe takedown.. :to_keep_order:

Triple Treat
19-01-2007, 06:22 AM
In the legs - PIECE OF CAKE, if they cannot do it with those guns, find ones that can.

I can pin a trap at 50mtrs which is alot smaller than a knee!

Plus, only people who haven&#39;t been around many fights would reach for a gun if someone had a knife, only wimps need guns :D

Taylor
19-01-2007, 06:40 AM
In my dream world the Police are experts with the weapons they are issued, they have a gun on their hip/leg because they can shoot playing cards from across the road, they have a batton because they can bring five guys down with it using some Jedi Knight moves and they have pepper spray because they like a bit of flavor on their meals and nothing else seems to cut it. Fighter Pilots can put their Hornet upside-down under the Sydney Harbour Bridge for a giggle etc etc
Professionals, all of them, but I guess there&#39;s only so much you can cram into the training and experience will teach more than that academy stay anyway. :to_keep_order:

A security guard has done far worse, in my opinion.

Gryphen
19-01-2007, 07:21 AM
I think the cops did the right thing in the situation, I&#39;m glad they survived and hopefully are not to worse for wear....



I realise that none of us were there, and don&#39;t really know what happened, but that is the same with most events that occur day to day, shit if it was a pre-requisite that we had to be there before we could comment on something, then this forum would have a couple of hundred posts tops, not the few hundred thousand posts it does have.

Everybody likes to have a comment about something in the media, and no we don&#39;t know it all, and yes we can be proved wrong, but doesn&#39;t mean I will STFU about something of interest.

mikey_R6
19-01-2007, 07:41 AM
Do we need to cover how difficult and ineffective it is to try and shoot somebody in the legs one more time for the slow kids at the back of the class?[/b]

apparently so:


In the legs - PIECE OF CAKE, if they cannot do it with those guns, find ones that can.

I can pin a trap at 50mtrs which is alot smaller than a knee!

Plus, only people who haven&#39;t been around many fights would reach for a gun if someone had a knife, only wimps need guns :D[/b]

sigh...

OK here goes. for the *last* time. i am so out of this thread.

i don&#39;t think it&#39;s the type of gun that&#39;s the issue. unless the cops are allowed to have sawn-offs! :-)

when you&#39;re shooting traps, is a mental patient attacking you with a knife at the same time? do you have the type of adrenaline response that you can only get when you are in fear of your life? are you using a little pistol? are you using solid shot (instead of a shotgun &#39;burst&#39; which makes it a lot easier to hit something)? are you moving/walking whilst you&#39;re shooting? is the target moving erratically instead of in a nice predictable projectile arc? are the circumstances mostly out of your control? if the answers to ALL these questions are yes, THEN you can tell us all how trap shooting is relevant.

Taylor
19-01-2007, 07:52 AM
Bean bag shooting MP5, fuck yeah, that&#39;d be good for anything. Innacurate for sure when just holding the trigger, but for riots, who cares, but up close it&#39;d be like getting your arse beaten by a group of thugs all while the Police stay far back and out of danger.

It&#39;d be like getting a smack from the Police for being a dick, at the moment they just tell you to move on, but if you don&#39;t respect them you should get a round to the arse and you&#39;ll learn some respect.

Keep the deadly ammo in the 9mm for when someone shoots back, but up until that point, just shoot the shit out of them with the bean bags.

I seriously think that would be a massive boost to the police force&#39;s effectiveness and I&#39;d love to see it.

Dyno
19-01-2007, 09:23 AM
Does anyone remember the story in the news a few years ago about a Victorian police officer chasing a suspect on the freeway or highway or whatever? I think they crashed his car and surrounded him. He got out with a knife and a big arse burly cop picked up a 2x4 from somewhere are proceeded to knock the shit out of him.
The media and bleeding hearts cried foul about excessive force in the way the cop disarmed him.

I couldn&#39;t help thinking he was damn lucky the cop didn&#39;t shoot his arse. Fatal or non-fatal end, someone would have whinged either way.


Bean bag shooting MP5, fuck yeah, that&#39;d be good for anything. Innacurate for sure when just holding the trigger, but for riots, who cares, but up close it&#39;d be like getting your arse beaten by a group of thugs all while the Police stay far back and out of danger.[/b]

I don&#39;t think bean bag rounds are available for anything less than a shotgun. Certainly nothing small enough to fit in a side holster.
Cops are not infantry. They can&#39;t be expected to walk the beat with 20kg of assorted non-lethal weapons and equipment for every situation.

XSorXpire
19-01-2007, 09:41 AM
Damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Shoot all mental patients (or lock em up)
Shoot all non english speaking migrants (or lock em up)
Shoot all bad cage drivers (or.. nah just shoot em)
Shoot all opinionated assholes.

Now for some peace and quiet.

What was that noise??
Ouch, why am i bleeding?
Help!!

block
19-01-2007, 10:06 AM
Lets not forget the bean bags are considered "Less Lethal". They are still quite capable of killing people, particularly at close range.

Ev
19-01-2007, 11:08 AM
I didn&#39;t get a picture, but riding to work today someone had strung a huge banner over one of the pedestrain bridge over the Fwy saying Police Officer **** **** RAPIST.
Someone wants to get the message out! :blink:[/b]

the dumb fuck put it up backwards on monday so you couldn&#39;t read it.[/b]
I get the feeling he didn&#39;t think it through real well, which worries me as its a nasty thing to say... that said when you dealing with irrational attacks one can generally ignore them like water of a ducks back.
If they find the guy I guess he won&#39;t get of with a caution now.... or ever again


and he was gonna kill us for being "satans whores" ,[/b]
your not really "satans whores" are you?

if you are I think it should be noted in your PSB group status :D

Sunshine & F'n Rainbows
19-01-2007, 11:36 AM
The media and bleeding hearts cried foul about excessive force in the way the cop disarmed him.

I couldn&#39;t help thinking he was damn lucky the cop didn&#39;t shoot his arse. Fatal or non-fatal end, someone would have whinged either way.[/b]

That&#39;s it. No matter how hard a job it is and how good the cops may do it, there&#39;s always going to be some moron out there that&#39;s watched three hundred hours of A Current Affair and thinks they know a better way.

Gryphen
19-01-2007, 01:26 PM
http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/07/02/0307NUKES_wideweb__470x264,2.jpg

KILL EM ALL LET GOD SORT THE FUCKERS OUT






(AND YES THATS A joke)

Taylor
19-01-2007, 01:33 PM
If the you gave the Police a fluffy pillow they&#39;d find a reason to use it. If they don&#39;t have the fluffy pillow, they won&#39;t consider it an option.

thro
19-01-2007, 02:18 PM
Sadly, modifications are being made to the targets in the Victorian Police ranges soon. Currently they will fall down if hit once or double tapped. The modification - stay up until the full clip is emptied into them.

Apparently a copper shot someone going after him a while ago, thought he was down but then got a nasty surprise when the guy shot him back :(

Mind you, the Vic pleece have had a bit of a reputation in years gone past for their unique interpretation of "you have the right to remain silent, unmoving and rapidly cooling".

:blink:[/b]

Whilst this sounds pretty harsh - if you&#39;ve gotten to the point where "lethal force" is authorised/involved, then you shoot to kill. You don&#39;t pull a gun and start shooting people unless you&#39;re prepared/intending to have them dead - as that is the possible outcome whether you&#39;re attempting to kill them with a head/chest shot or not.

XSorXpire
19-01-2007, 02:48 PM
If the you gave the Police a fluffy pillow they&#39;d find a reason to use it. If they don&#39;t have the fluffy pillow, they won&#39;t consider it an option.[/b]
Man stabs policeman.
Partner disarms and disables man with fluffy pillow.

Yea right.

thro
19-01-2007, 03:01 PM
If the you gave the Police a fluffy pillow they&#39;d find a reason to use it. If they don&#39;t have the fluffy pillow, they won&#39;t consider it an option.[/b]

Well duh.

They will however also not be able to perform their job, which last I checked was to protect civilians from other civilians.

If they *had* a fluffy pillow, I&#39;m quite sure that option would have been considered and discarded as unsuitable well before pulling the pistol out.

Machast
19-01-2007, 03:15 PM
If they don&#39;t have the fluffy pillow, they won&#39;t consider it an option.[/b]

hmm I dunno, you don&#39;t need to have something to want to use it.
When I&#39;m walking thru the local park and someone&#39;s dog runs over & starts yapping at my feet, I start wishing I had a tazer.

Taylor
19-01-2007, 03:15 PM
It&#39;s methaphorical. It means that if you give the police big shiney guns, there will come a time when they use them. If they don&#39;t have big shiney guns, they don&#39;t use them. Could give AIRPOL an APACHE and you just watch, there&#39;ll be machine gun shells falling from the sky as they shoot out engines, tyres and fuel tanks from above.

You could argue that protecting the public includes protecting the people they are pursuing. Innoccent until proven guilty remmember. The police aren&#39;t there to deal out justice afterall, simply to administer it, bring you before a court to face your punishment after due process as is determined by the written and common law of the land. That is fair.

I would like to know where the line between bringing someone in and just stopping them doing what they are doing becomes defined. For example, say a mafia leader was managing the import of alot of drugs, over a long time, the police are trying to build evidence against this person. When they go in with the raid to arrest them, are they just as happy to shoot the man dead as they are to make the arrest? From a strictly seperation of powers point of view, doesn&#39;t that make all the hard work they put in for nothing? There&#39;s no justice there. It&#39;s like the ends justify the means. If they know that an arrest is going to be dangerous and the crimes the person is commiting are serious, why not just assassinate the guy and save all the police man power in building evidence and questioning people? Get a court sanctioned killing or whatever.

Melkor
19-01-2007, 03:50 PM
What you still fail to grasp is that the officer is NOT shooting to kill. He&#39;s using a weapon of last resort to stop a direct threat to the lives of anyone at the scene at the time.

If the offender dies as a result of the shot it&#39;s an absolute tragedy especially if he was metally troubled and could have been helped. However, at the end of the day he chose, in a sane frame of mind or not, to stab the officer in the shoulder with a kinfe. His choice and i guess he wont do it again now.

And as for the leg shootin&#39; Hollywood six-gun toting hard drinkin&#39; hard swearin&#39; mel gibson leathal weapon rubbish.

I too can peg a 2" bullseye at 100m with a .223, but try doing that after an adrenaline pumping highspeed chase, footchase, and then being assaulted with a deadly weapon.

I remember in weapons training they made us run around the oval in full gear a few times, then ran us straight into the range puffing and gasping and a weapons training instructor screaming in my ear, for an intuitive shoot (good guy bad guy targets). It was all i could to to hit centre of mass from 3 metres and no-one was trying to stab me.

I hope the officer concerned can return to work after such a trauma and that the OFFENDER&#39;S family can accept there is only one person responsible for his own death in this circumstance.

P.S. Corks I still remember that incident you talk about, I believe the officer he confronted is still suffing from that incident.

Sunshine & F'n Rainbows
19-01-2007, 03:56 PM
It&#39;s methaphorical. It means that if you give the police big shiney guns, there will come a time when they use them. If they don&#39;t have big shiney guns, they don&#39;t use them.[/b]

Congratulations sir, I am lost for words.

Fairly certain my neighbours heard me slapping my forehead and groaning though.

XSorXpire
19-01-2007, 04:08 PM
Rant[/b]
Give the boy a tissue, (and a fluffy pillow)

Eukanuba
19-01-2007, 04:21 PM
Could give AIRPOL an APACHE and you just watch, there&#39;ll be machine gun shells falling from the sky as they shoot out engines, tyres and fuel tanks from above.

You could argue that protecting the public includes protecting the people they are pursuing. Innoccent until proven guilty remmember. The police aren&#39;t there to deal out justice afterall, simply to administer it, bring you before a court to face your punishment after due process as is determined by the written and common law of the land. That is fair.[/b]

Shush, you&#39;ll give dorrington ideas about stopping speeding hoon motorbike riders...

:russian_roulette: * Dodging machinegun fire on the kwinana freeway from an over pass waiting apache * :russian_roulette:

Taz
19-01-2007, 05:12 PM
Taylor
being in the airforce just how much did they teach you to use a firearm and it was probably never when someone was pulling a knife out of you.
were you one of the air defence guards.

It takes constant and repeated practice to shoot a small moving target while moving and that is without the threat or actual use of deadly force against you.

The beat copper is trainned to use his firearm to shoot the centre of the deadly force used. This action means that even under stress it is very likely that he will hit what he aims at.

bullets from any gun will bounce of concrete and keep going and to miss his legs 5 times means that there is 5 rounds going PAST the target.


Even from the media reports the coppers tried the best evasive tactic possible RUN AWAY hence one ended up in the pool and the other obviously didnt get clear and was stabbed. THEN the aggressor was shot.

also ( correct if wrong corks ) but i thought it was the one that wasnt stabbed that shot him other wise the copper may well be dead and then the debate would be.........


they have their guns why didnt they use them.




this guy was guilty of stabbing a police officer and no-one is disputing that fact so his innocence was not a factor.

Taylor
19-01-2007, 05:27 PM
The media is bound to make a story bigger than it is. Selling the truth makes for a poor tomorrow.

There has to be an alternative to lethal force, so far training people to react without thinking and shoot the most likely thing to be hit is the most simple solution to the issue. Does it work? That is the question you are all saying yes to, it does work, and as such it&#39;s not broken so why fix it right? I just think there could be a better way, the ideas I offered didn&#39;t meet your criteria though.

Please offer your own alternatives.

Falcore
20-01-2007, 10:10 AM
wow i didnt know if i took a knife to someone they would defend themselves, bugger better remember that.

if somebody came at me with a knife or some weapon i would defend myself anyway i can possible and that persons welfare will be pretty low on my priority list, actually i will try and make sure my actions inflict as much injury as possible to stop the f$%ker.

i dont believe the persons condition should even come into the equasion to determine the cops course of action, from what has been said it seems as if this person was physically capable so the outcome of his actions would be the same, regardless if he was conscious of it or not.

Zedimus
20-01-2007, 06:35 PM
The police force are not members of the Justice League.

They do not get equiped with Batmans utility belt so they can calmly chose the correct way to stop a criminal. (Tazers, Pillows, bean bag guns, rubber pellet guns, shark repelant spray etc etc...)

They have thier training and a last resort weapon.

To ask that they carry additional less leathel wepons is only asking for trouble as time is wasted while they choose the one that works.

In this case, the criminal may have had time to try a second or third strike and the headline would have been "Young Police Officer Killed".

It is a crying shame if the wacko was suffering from mental issues, but that is a another issue for the Govenment to work out.

Gryphen
20-01-2007, 07:42 PM
Actually I hope the Cops were intending to kill the guy, I also hope that every time they fire their pistols it is with lethal and deadly intent. Of course if a cop pulls the trigger he intends to kill.

We shouldn&#39;t have it any other way, if you draw a gun, you had better be ready to use it and to use it to kill, otherwise it detracts from the seriousness of actually drawing the weapon in the first place.

To try for anything else diminishes the onus on the shooter. If you draw it you&#39;re going to kill someone is a VERY heavy tag to go along with the using of a weapon, I&#39;d rather that type of pressure on a Cop, at least then if he does draw it you know his intent, and you know not to fuck around.

It is in fact a safer set of conditions than drawing a weapon with intent to injure.

Melkor
20-01-2007, 07:56 PM
...It is in fact a safer set of conditions than drawing a weapon with intent to injure...[/b]

again gryph you (and others) fail to understand the intent behind the firing of the pistol.

It&#39;s not to injure or kill or maim or wound or do any sort of degree or measure of injury.

It is to stop an imminent direct threat on ANY life.

The shot may kill, or injure or whatever. Not the intent behind pulling the trigger. The intent is to stop the threat. In fact in training they say you continue to fire until there is no threat. One shot can kill. Some people have been hit by many rounds and live.

I once saw a video of two cops in the states that responded to a domestic and encountered a guy high on angel dust (PCP). He started to beat them with an iron bar and one officer fired all six rounds into the offender, then reloaded and fired another six all while this guy rained blows down upon him and his partner. Obviously the guy did die but he was still a direct and immedate threat when the officer chose to RELOAD.

It&#39;s not nice, it&#39;s something im sure we&#39;d all rather didn&#39;t happen, but i&#39;m glad that we have people are still willing to do such a stupid job and take the risk, laying their life on the line just to make your world a little safer.

TurboR1
20-01-2007, 08:04 PM
I once saw a video of two cops in the states that responded to a domestic and encountered a guy high on angel dust (PCP). He started to beat them with an iron bar and one officer fired all six rounds into the offender, then reloaded and fired another six all while this guy rained blows down upon him and his partner. Obviously the guy did die but he was still a direct and immedate threat when the officer chose to RELOAD.[/b]

Phwoar what a way to go... consume and entire clip into the body and still keep on keeping on...

Gryphen
20-01-2007, 09:03 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gryphen @ Jan 20 2007, 08:42 PM) 401068
...It is in fact a safer set of conditions than drawing a weapon with intent to injure...[/b]

again gryph you (and others) fail to understand the intent behind the firing of the pistol......
[/b][/quote]

Actually melkor, for some strange reason i do in fact understand the reason for drawing a pistol... and if i ever had to draw one from its holster it was with the intent to kill, yer justification was to &#39;stop&#39; something, but i would never have drawn it without the intent to use it, to use it is to kill.

To think of it any other way lessens not only the self-precautions one would take prior to drawing it but would also mean that it would be drawn for occasions that did not warrant drawing it in the first place.

Oh yer, I carried a sidearm for 20 yrs as part of my duty, it always had the utmost respect, and luckily for me was never fired in anger, though it was drawn once with intent to kill.

cYcLoNe
20-01-2007, 09:38 PM
I too am glad the officer is not the deceased one btw...

Just h8 to hear of ppl dying - period.
_____________________________________________



If you h8 me so much citizen MAKE YOUR OWN THREAD ABOUT IT!

I&#39;m sure a few peeps will join you.

Meanwhile - you can do this...
http://xs411.xs.to/xs411/07036/cristianoronaldo.jpg

Melkor
20-01-2007, 09:55 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Melkor @ Jan 20 2007, 08:56 PM) 401075

...It is in fact a safer set of conditions than drawing a weapon with intent to injure...[/b]

again gryph you (and others) fail to understand the intent behind the firing of the pistol......
[/b]

Actually melkor, for some strange reason i do in fact understand the reason for drawing a pistol... and if i ever had to draw one from its holster it was with the intent to kill, yer justification was to &#39;stop&#39; something, but i would never have drawn it without the intent to use it, to use it is to kill.

To think of it any other way lessens not only the self-precautions one would take prior to drawing it but would also mean that it would be drawn for occasions that did not warrant drawing it in the first place.

Oh yer, I carried a sidearm for 20 yrs as part of my duty, it always had the utmost respect, and luckily for me was never fired in anger, though it was drawn once with intent to kill.
[/b][/quote]

Military have a different purpose for carrying guns...The WAPD do not train their &#39;cop on the beat&#39; officer to kill.

Your statement clearly indicates that you didn&#39;t understand WAPD policy on firearm carry. I didn&#39;t say you didn&#39;t know how to carry or use one, or for what purpose you may have intended for that carry, but I know you haven&#39;t trained as a WA police officer.I for one am glad that they have this policy and are not like the vast majority of police forces around the globe.

Gryphen
20-01-2007, 10:12 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gryphen @ Jan 20 2007, 10:03 PM) 401106

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gryphen @ Jan 20 2007, 08:42 PM) 401068<div class='quotemain'>...It is in fact a safer set of conditions than drawing a weapon with intent to injure...[/b]

again gryph you (and others) fail to understand the intent behind the firing of the pistol......
[/b][/quote]

Actually melkor, for some strange reason i do in fact understand the reason for drawing a pistol... and if i ever had to draw one from its holster it was with the intent to kill, yer justification was to &#39;stop&#39; something, but i would never have drawn it without the intent to use it, to use it is to kill.

To think of it any other way lessens not only the self-precautions one would take prior to drawing it but would also mean that it would be drawn for occasions that did not warrant drawing it in the first place.

Oh yer, I carried a sidearm for 20 yrs as part of my duty, it always had the utmost respect, and luckily for me was never fired in anger, though it was drawn once with intent to kill.
[/b][/quote]

Military have a different purpose for carrying guns...The WAPD do not train their &#39;cop on the beat&#39; officer to kill.

Your statement clearly indicates that you didn&#39;t understand WAPD policy on firearm carry. I didn&#39;t say you didn&#39;t know how to carry or use one, or for what purpose you may have intended for that carry, but I know you haven&#39;t trained as a WA police officer.I for one am glad that they have this policy and are not like the vast majority of police forces around the globe.
[/b][/quote]


If thats there &#39;policy&#39; and mental attitude to carrying a firearm, then one day there is going to be an &#39;accident&#39; and somebody will die that wasn&#39;t doing enough to be killed for. To draw a weapon for anything other than to kill another human being is plain stupidity. It lessens the responsibility of the user.

XSorXpire
21-01-2007, 12:30 PM
I bumped into an old friend at the bikini wash, he&#39;s a life guard and a copper.
He said thye injured officer has had to undergo more surgery to the injury which is in his shoulder.
Though i can only assume, a shoulder injury would be close to the lungs and possible death. But then any stabbing cant be that far from death.
I hope the officer makes a full recovery and is able to go back to work and perform his duty. Noone deserves to be stabbed whilst at work, no matter what job they do.

Cbr1k
21-01-2007, 12:37 PM
Noone deserves to be stabbed whilst at work, no matter what job they do.[/b]
I&#39;ll make an exception for Dorrington

Triple Treat
21-01-2007, 01:01 PM
This thread&#39;s so cool... :suicide_fool-edit: :whoops: :drinks:

Gryphen
21-01-2007, 06:11 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(XSorXpire @ Jan 21 2007, 01:30 PM) 401344
Noone deserves to be stabbed whilst at work, no matter what job they do.[/b]
I&#39;ll make an exception for Dorrington
[/b][/quote]

But not JUST stabbed either... there would have to be a LOT of other painful things inflicted upon him...

thro
21-01-2007, 10:59 PM
Actually I hope the Cops were intending to kill the guy, I also hope that every time they fire their pistols it is with lethal and deadly intent. Of course if a cop pulls the trigger he intends to kill.

We shouldn&#39;t have it any other way, if you draw a gun, you had better be ready to use it and to use it to kill, otherwise it detracts from the seriousness of actually drawing the weapon in the first place.

To try for anything else diminishes the onus on the shooter. If you draw it you&#39;re going to kill someone is a VERY heavy tag to go along with the using of a weapon, I&#39;d rather that type of pressure on a Cop, at least then if he does draw it you know his intent, and you know not to fuck around.

It is in fact a safer set of conditions than drawing a weapon with intent to injure.[/b]

This is exactly what I was getting at.

If you&#39;re drawing a gun, you better be prepared to have the other guy dead - even if you were aiming at the legs or whatever, there&#39;s always the chance of missing and hitting in the gut, hitting a major artery in the leg and having the guy bleed to death (after following through stabbing you again), or whatever.


Alternatives? The US military is working on microwave riot control devices, but they&#39;re:

1. Some way off
2. It&#39;s probably dubious as to whether even those would stop an offender high on drugs (or a psycho with sufficiently high pain threshold/self control), as they rely on pain to get the crowd to dispserse

At the end of the day, the only "sure fire" way to stop someone (who is actively trying to kill you) is to drop them. The "best chance" of dropping them is currently a/multiple shots to the torso.


We can live in fairy land and wish for alternatives, but there currently aren&#39;t any that work reliably enough.