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Foofie Foofie
29-07-2005, 01:10 PM
If you havent been fortumate enuf to see one of these in person, this is the next best thing :)

http://www.cobraclub.com/cobragallery/data...9/f1fireup.mpeg (http://www.cobraclub.com/cobragallery/data/3009/f1fireup.mpeg)

Infusi0n
29-07-2005, 02:36 PM
That is FUCKING AWESOME, one of the best videos i have ever seen that engine i so goddamn amazing, i dont even know what kind of fuel they run in those things but those exhausts are literally blue flaming *drools*

Rod
29-07-2005, 04:57 PM
It's grouse when you're standing right there. A couple of years ago they had a BMW F1 car in the city square in the melbourne CBD (at GP time) and they started it up, like in that video. Couldn't see the exhausts as the bodywork was on but the sound was incredible. The warmup is controlled via program on a laptop. That throttle blip sequence in the video is amazing - so much power and such a light flywheel effect - wap-wap-wap!

Pkunk
29-07-2005, 05:41 PM
ive a clip of the 787b le mans car being started and blipped

sounds almost the same ;)

Gordo
29-07-2005, 05:53 PM
I too was in a similar situation to you Rod,

I was it the pits at the Brittish GP a few years ago when BMW ( turbo ) were playing with their set up in a Brahbam ( how long ago )
We were merrilly looking around taking snaps and driblling with all the technology around when just as I was standing about 2 feet from this car ( on stands too so the vibrations went right through me ) they fired it up ........FUCK ME it was awesome.....
gives me shivers down my neck just thinking about it again........

TurboR1
29-07-2005, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Gordo@Jul 29 2005, 05:53 PM
I too was in a similar situation to you Rod,

I was it the pits at the Brittish GP a few years ago when BMW ( turbo ) were playing with their set up in a Brahbam ( how long ago )
We were merrilly looking around taking snaps and driblling with all the technology around when just as I was standing about 2 feet from this car ( on stands too so the vibrations went right through me ) they fired it up ........FUCK ME it was awesome.....
gives me shivers down my neck just thinking about it again........

143659


Oh yeah those BMW turbos put out huge power 1000+HP not bad for 2 litre engine

Gordo
29-07-2005, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by TurboR1@Jul 29 2005, 07:09 PM
Oh yeah those BMW turbos put out huge power 1000+HP not bad for 2 litre engine

143689

even better Robin, they were only 1.5 litre..but yeah 1000 bhp plus, in qualifying spec they would last 3 laps ( on a good day ) warm up lap, fast lap then run down lap where they would usually expire.......god I used to love F1.......before WA Salvage took it over....

number9
29-07-2005, 09:58 PM
Scarily enough, I think the F1 cars run something 'reasonably' close to regular unleaded... I mean I'm sure it's more potent than ELF Racing fuel, but it's not the methanol brew used in CART

Barfridge
30-07-2005, 12:29 AM
My pants are suddenly tight

Foofie Foofie
30-07-2005, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by Gordo@Jul 29 2005, 07:23 PM
even better Robin, they were only 1.5 litre..but yeah 1000 bhp plus, in qualifying spec they would last 3 laps ( on a good day ) warm up lap, fast lap then run down lap where they would usually expire.......god I used to love F1.......before WA Salvage took it over....

143695


Well said Gordo , it is a shame.

The Reno motors were 1.5L abd 1500hp in qualifying trim, in cast iron blocks, running pure un-diluded toluene with just under 6bar boost pressure (87psi) and just above 13bar fuel rail pressure (188psi). A Honda CBR929RR runs 50psi rail pressure and thats considered high !. The Garrett turbochargers they used in 1986 on the last Hondas, are just now, coming into production a few years ago, known as the GT series :) .

As far as fuel now, i belive its a 114 RON+MON/2 elf product that is tailor brewed to the event, time of year and so on. Things like toluene, and MTBE oxygenators are all nearly decided the day before the event to get the fuel as specific as humanly possible. JET A1 that flies you around the world, known for its perfect refining isnt fussed over in such a delicate manner as F1 fuels.

How about a mid 80's F1 highlight night :) ....... beer , skittles and F1 on a big screen !!!!!!!, even as late as Shuey in Beneton / Senna era is fine with me !!

CRB
30-07-2005, 10:11 AM
instant chub...

wow that was seriously amazing...

Mr John
01-08-2005, 10:14 AM
That's some serious noise & power. I've been to the Melb F1 several times & goddamn it's noisy when the cars go past but that must have been damaging & deafening.

brendon_zx
01-08-2005, 12:42 PM
ive a clip of the 787b le mans car being started and blipped

any chance of posting the clip.... quad rotor right? That would be awesome.

Cheers, Brendon

Foofie Foofie
01-08-2005, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by brendon_zx@Aug 1 2005, 12:42 PM
any chance of posting the clip.... quad rotor right? That would be awesome.

Cheers, Brendon

144309


I have a few of em , when i get a chance tonight , ill throw it on our server ....

MisterP
02-08-2005, 11:56 AM
:blink: Nooicccce

Been lucky enough to sit in a few F1 cars (classic (John player specials and older Williams) and modern F1 cars),been at a few GP`s and seen a few test bed runs (and engines expire) as well of the older McLaren F1 engines. Its a good thing when your old man works for McLaren ya see :lol: (well, a subsidary of Mclaren F1). Plus been round the Benetton and Williams factories a few times when i was back in the UK. They used to run a series called classic F1 in the UK, for those people with far too much money that had brought a F1 car and wanted to race them. The series I used to race (Forumla Ford) was one of the support races.

Funnily enough, A modern F1 engine in component parts, the engine isnt much to look at. Still the same V10/V12 (and V8 next year) configuration, very shallow and wide. Lots of carbon fibre. The engine itself has virtually zero interia, hence why it can rev so freely and easily...and probably why before traction and take-off control, that many drivers used to stall their engines. From memory it has a multiplate clutch, much like a motorbikes, and no flywheel., valves are electronically controlled. They idle at some stupid speed (cant remember, but its something like 7,000rpm).
The impressive part is the materials, the manufacturing process and the electronics. The materials they use for some components are literally custom designed for a purpose. For example, ive seen a lump or alloy, no bigger than a 5c coin, weigh more than a 10x10x10cm block of lead. They use that material for chassis balance weights to get CofG spot on perfect. I remember they use gold leaf on the firewall as it has one of the best heat dissapation properties of any metal.
The manufacturing process is somethign else. They can machine a 3D object from a solid lump of ally or whatever. Think they use water injection, or laser cutting..cant remember, but it means there are no welds, no joins and therefore (if designed correct) no weak points in the component. Its impressive to see a lump of metal go in one end, and 30 mins later, a complete front wheel component come out the other side.
Electronics, needn`t really mention. They have so many sensors, pickups and the ability to change things on the fly, that I think rules are now, that they are not allowed to alter the ECU code whilst racing. I know they can modify settings from the pit lane based on info they get back from the car. The processor(s) on board are dedicated to each task, and run at some stupid terra flop speed...again, cant really remember. I do remember that the sterring wheel has its own CPU and memory and stuff. Its basically a computer encased in a carbon fibre steering wheel....very cool...and VERY expensive (think the one from the Benetton was around the 100K pound mark).
Dads involved in chassis stuff. Its amazing to see someone balance a F1 tub on a finger, perfectly balanced and weighing next to nothing. The front suspension struts are incredibly strong axially , but the sheer and momentary load strength is nothing. Amazing to see someone try to crush a strut in a hydraulic press, yet be able to snap the strut over their leg like a stick.

The most impressive engine Ive ever seen is the classic Tyrrell ELF 6 wheeler. (think it was) 1500cc and kicked out over 1000BHP..incredible, theres a great website on it http://www.project34.co.uk/. Sounded like a banshee screaming. The other one worth mentioning is a classic brabham supercharged F1 car. Sort of like a V8 on steriods.

Anyway...its all a little sterile in F1 today in my opinion. Far too commercial and more like a procession of exotic cars rather than a race. Taking nothing away from the drivers mind you, but to watch, it really isnt all that.
Drivers like James Hunt used to go out, get tanked the night before, shag some nice chick (or more), rock up 1 hour before the race and then go drive. Those days have well and truely gone.

i`ll stop my rambling now...

Foofie Foofie
02-08-2005, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by MisterP@Aug 2 2005, 11:56 AM
From memory it has a multiplate clutch, much like a motorbikes, and no flywheel., valves are electronically controlled.

144613


Yes they have a multiplate dry clutch, AP do one its about 8" in dia, carbon and from memory 8 frictions and 9 steels. Flywheel it has, its still a source of external balancing, and a way to attach the clutch to the engine. The engines still run mechanical cams, and pneumatic valve setups, not a electronic setup like some of the non F1 BMW engines run just yet. The pnuematics are there instead of valve springs, as air weighs much less than a double row spring, collet and retainer. The pneumatics run electonic VSV solenoids to regulate the seat pressure, but thats as far as the sheer electonics go.

xphread
02-08-2005, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by MisterP@Aug 2 2005, 11:56 AM
The processor(s) on board are dedicated to each task, and run at some stupid terra flop speed...again, cant really remember. I do remember that the sterring wheel has its own CPU and memory and stuff. Its basically a computer encased in a carbon fibre steering wheel....very cool...and VERY expensive (think the one from the Benetton was around the 100K pound mark).

144613
I would be suprised if the electronics were actually that fancy.
Sure they might be expensive... but thats because they are custom made and not likely to be mass produced :rolleyes: so all R&D costs go into the one or two items. (plus its a rich mans sport.... why wouldnt electronics consultants / contractors want to cash in on these people with $$$$ to burn :rolleyes: )

If you think about it... a 15 year old $5 microcontroller can operate at say 5 MHz.
If you are getting sensor samples at one fifth of the clock rate and sending it to another processor to calculate stuff, that 1 million samples per second.
With an engine operating at even 25,000 rpm.... thats 2400 sensor measurements per piston stroke. :blink:

I deal with relatively basic/cheap ($25ish) embedded processors operating at 66MHz at the moment. Its amazing what electronics can do. :)

azathoth
02-08-2005, 01:15 PM
I deal with relatively basic/cheap ($25ish) embedded processors operating at 66MHz at the moment. Its amazing what electronics can do. smile.gif

Can those embedded processors send 4mbp bursts over a microwave link, while also sending constant real time telemetry over wireless, simultaneously monitoring 100 sensors at x times per second, interpreting input controls sent over the wireless to adjust engine torque, fuel, ignition timing etc etc?

http://www.f1technical.net/

xphread
02-08-2005, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by azathoth@Aug 2 2005, 01:15 PM
Can those embedded processors send 4mbp bursts over a microwave link, while also sending constant real time telemetry over wireless, simultaneously monitoring 100 sensors at x times per second, interpreting input controls sent over the wireless to adjust engine torque, fuel, ignition timing etc etc?

http://www.f1technical.net/

144639
From your link :rolleyes:


Every second of every lap over 150,000 measurements are made by the WilliamsF1 BMW FW26's on-board computer
so... yep. 66MHz is more than enough to sample all that.

Not sure what you mean by 4mbp... 4Mb/s comms link?
(but that doesnt make sense if talking about "4mbp bursts and also real time telemetry" as it is just the medium for doing exactly that :unsure: )
Ethernet is 100 Mb/s... the microwave link doesnt add too much overhead so thats more than acheivable.

If given new fuel/timing maps, the complete re-mapping of engine timing or fuel mapping would take in the order of a few milli seconds. :)

and most handheld/PDA micros usually operate at 400ish+ MHz. :mellow:
...so I dont see the problem. :rolleyes:

anyway... You deal with the "big arse" pentium stuff in the GHz range which blitzes embedded micros when size and power and cost isnt a restriction. :P
(And its still pretty cheap when you think about the money spent on F1. :P )
So you should know the power/possibilities in electronics / data processing in comparison to physically moving components. Micros would look upon F1s as it they were going in slow motion. :rolleyes:

sathid
02-08-2005, 01:46 PM
For example, ive seen a lump or alloy, no bigger than a 5c coin, weigh more than a 10x10x10cm block of lead.

that would be one amazing alloy...since the most dense metallic element is iridium (osmium is about the same) at 22.65 grams per cc. lead is about half that. which would mean a 10x10x10cm cube of lead (1000cc) would weigh 11.34kgs. a 5c coin would be about .75cc's meaning that alloy would have a density of over 15kg/cc....
500 times denser than the densest known pure metal....

if you could pick that small piece up by hand I'd be surprised....

azathoth
02-08-2005, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by xphread@Aug 2 2005, 01:44 PM
From your link :rolleyes:
so... yep. 66MHz is more than enough to sample all that.

Not sure what you mean by 4mbp... 4Mb/s comms link?

144657



Oops, 4 MBytes. Anyway, who's to say that each of those 150,000 measurements aren't individually encoded into an XML file, unicode, digitally signed with 256 bit asymettric encryption then BZIPed and transferred using http through microsoft's IIS proxy using NTLM authentication? (All on WindowsXP, running Winamp, MSN Messenger and that nifty WeatherIcon tray applet from the adverts on CraigsList.com) My point being, 150,000 is the absolute minimum number of instructions per second needed to read those datapoints, it's really going to be doing a whole lot more! :o

xphread
02-08-2005, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by azathoth+Aug 2 2005, 02:14 PM-->
who's to say that each of those 150,000 measurements aren't individually encoded into an XML file, unicode, digitally signed with 256 bit asymettric encryption then BZIPed and transferred using http through microsoft's IIS proxy using NTLM authentication? (All on WindowsXP, running Winamp, MSN Messenger and that nifty WeatherIcon tray applet from the adverts on CraigsList.com)

144673[/b]You sir, have shown why our (and many other) embedded systems suck! :rolleyes:
(and with talk like that you will be promoted to head architect or sales very shortly. :P :lol: )

<!--QuoteBegin-azathoth@Aug 2 2005, 02:14 PM
My point being, 150,000 is the absolute minimum number of instructions per second needed to read those datapoints, it&#39;s really going to be doing a whole lot more! :o

144673 Yep... Thats why I mentioned modern embedded processors usually operate at 10 times that rate. :)

The electronics dont need to be THAT fast / leading edge to easily keep up with the physical world. ( ie the speeds we are talking about with F1 engines / movement.) :rolleyes:

(I was simply pointing out the few excited exagerations about F1 stuff with the previous posts... as Sathid pointed out with the alloy mass etc) :rolleyes:

MisterP
02-08-2005, 04:49 PM
(I was simply pointing out the few excited exagerations about F1 stuff with the previous posts... as Sathid pointed out with the alloy mass etc)

FFS Xphread...take the post in the form it was intended...most of us plebs are in awe of F1 technology so a chance to go round the factory and see this stuff has most grown men going weak at the knees. Excited..probably....exagerations...maybe..so sue me.

I have no idea what the metal was, im guessing it wasnt pure (based on what Sathid said). I forget the price of the material, but it was expensive. My old mans had alot of experience with super alloys and other metals. For example, metals that dont become radio-active itself when uranium is transported into the reactor, ultra high density alloys and the like.
Anyway...you get the gist...high density, accurate and small.
Oh and definition of an alloy is "a mixture containing two or more metallic elements or metallic and nonmetallic elements usually fused together or dissolving into each other when molten; "brass is an alloy of zinc and copper" "
NOT a pure element.

P.S, how long it take you to find that damn info Sathid!!?? sheesh...get out on your bike more!! :lol:


Originally posted by sathid@Aug 2 2005, 01:46 PM
that would be one amazing alloy...since the most dense metallic element is iridium (osmium is about the same) at 22.65 grams per cc. lead is about half that. which would mean a 10x10x10cm cube of lead (1000cc) would weigh 11.34kgs. a 5c coin would be about .75cc&#39;s meaning that alloy would have a density of over 15kg/cc....
500 times denser than the densest known pure metal....

if you could pick that small piece up by hand I&#39;d be surprised....

144659

sathid
02-08-2005, 04:51 PM
about four seconds....
i cant get out on my bike...it&#39;s in pieces. lol.

MisterP
02-08-2005, 05:02 PM
:lol: push it around the street then!

Dingo
03-08-2005, 09:05 PM
I remember the good ol days, when colleagues like azathoth and xphread would discuss these matters in the coffee room whilst making a brew...

aint the interweb vunderbar!

waiting for video to download, but im with saf, an 80&#39;s f1 reminscing night would be awesome, particular when i was only 5 in the mid 80s ;)

xphread
04-08-2005, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Dingo@Aug 3 2005, 09:05 PM
I remember the good ol days, when colleagues like azathoth and xphread would discuss these matters in the coffee room whilst making a brew...

aint the interweb vunderbar!

145107definately!.... that way the boss cant physically see us slacking off! :lol: