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dr00
22-11-2009, 06:25 PM
has anyone heard about/been following this "scandal"? what do you think? is it as damning as its being made out? surprised there hasnt been a thread on it already. the main stream media havent picked it up either which i find interesting.

do a quick google search for all the details but basically the climate research unit at the uni of east anglia is one of the main centres of AGW "science" and heavily involved with IPCC. supposedly a hacker has grabbed a bunch of their files including over 1000 emails going back over a decade and posted it all in a file on the internet at the start of this weekend. CRU have acknowledged that they had a security breach and everything appears to be genuine but its too much and too detailed to not be at least partially genuine anyway. it is possible that genuine stuff could have been edited to make it more damning but it doesnt seem like it so far.

as people trawl through the emails there are quite a few pretty bad things coming up, particularly from the head of the CRU prof phil jones. here is a few examples to pique your interest...

this one is getting the most attention but i dont think its the most important

I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps
to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from
1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline.

and then some others, all from phil jones


"The other paper by MM is just garbage - as you knew. De Freitas again. Pielke is also losing all credibility as well by replying to the mad Finn as well - frequently as I see it. I can’t see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow - even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is !"


"...If anything, I would like to see the climate change happen, so the science could be proved right, regardless of the consequences. This isn’t being political, it is being selfish.
Cheers, Phil"


"PS I’m getting hassled by a couple of people to release the CRU station temperature data.

Don’t any of you three tell anybody that the UK has a Freedom of Information Act !"


"From: Phil Jones To: “Michael E. Mann”

Subject: IPCC & FOI
Date: Thu May 29 11:04:11 2008

Mike,

Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?

Keith will do likewise. He’s not in at the moment - minor family crisis.

Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don’t have his new email address.

We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.

I see that CA claim they discovered the 1945 problem in the Nature paper!!

Cheers

Phil:"


"The two MMs have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I’ll delete the file rather than send to anyone. Does your similar act in the US force you to respond to enquiries within 20 days? - our does ! The UK works on precedents, so the first request will test it.We also have a data protection act, which I will hide behind. Tom Wigley has sent me a worried email when he heard about it - thought people could ask him for his model code. He has retired officially from UEA so he can hide behind that."


"I think we have to stop considering Climate Research as a legitimate peer-reviewed journal. Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues in the climate research community to no longer submit to, or cite papers in, this journal. We would also need to consider what we tell or request of our more reasonable colleagues who currently sit on the editorial board…What do others think?"

by no means the worst bits but just a taste of whats coming out

edit: i put this in yada yada but maybe would be more suited to healthy wealthy and wise

jules_1972
22-11-2009, 06:57 PM
Conspiracy....

browncow
22-11-2009, 07:02 PM
So basically a research body has been fiddling with their statistics?

Dyno
22-11-2009, 08:25 PM
Why aren't any major media outlets covering this? Wait until someone does some research into the material, it could just be another hoax. It's not uncommon of late to post a fake news story to see how many media outlets can be caught out propogating it.

dr00
22-11-2009, 09:12 PM
its not a fake story, ive got the zip file on my computer. it has also been confirmed by CRU that the emails are at least genuine in part but thats not to say its all genuine. Prof Jones has confirmed that he did write that first email but said he cant remember what he meant by "hide the decline" because it was a decade ago.

there are main stream media outlets covering it a little now but not in australia.
Systems At Top Global Warming Research Unit Hacked, E-Mail Exchanges Posted Online - cbs3.com (http://cbs3.com/topstories/global.warming.debate.2.1326336.html)
Climate Skeptics See 'Smoking Gun' in Researchers' Leaked E-Mails - Biology | Astronomy | Chemistry | Physics - FOXNews.com (http://origin.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576009,00.html)
Hacked: Sensitive Documents Lifted from Hadley Climate Center - Environmental Capital - WSJ (http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2009/11/20/hacked-sensitive-documents-lifted-from-hadley-climate-center/)
Climategate: the final nail in the coffin of ‘Anthropogenic Global Warming’? – Telegraph Blogs (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100017393/climategate-the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-anthropogenic-global-warming/)
BBC News - Harrabin's Notes: E-mail arguments (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8371597.stm)
Hacker breaks into climate change research institution - Short Sharp Science - New Scientist (http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/11/an-anonymous-hacker-has-broken.html)

Fat Pat
23-11-2009, 08:01 AM
*Yawn*

Another "Leak" revealed to the masses about something someone diasagrees with. Gee there aren't many of these lately, and gosh dang if they don't just agree with what the leaker is trying to get across.

Slightly too convenient methinks:rolleyes:

Well, does anyone remember the "Godwin Grech-Gate" (a manufactured lie), or perhaps the "Obama wasn't born in the USA-gate" (they used the birth certificate of a bloke from Adelaide) amongst others?

Funny how in the evidence and acceptance by vast swathes of the community that global warming is at least "very likely", some group resorts to this sort of activity to attempt to hijack a policy/debate.

*Yawn*

dr00
23-11-2009, 08:28 AM
*Yawn*

Another "Leak" revealed to the masses about something someone diasagrees with. Gee there aren't many of these lately, and gosh dang if they don't just agree with what the leaker is trying to get across.

Slightly too convenient methinks:rolleyes:

Well, does anyone remember the "Godwin Grech-Gate" (a manufactured lie), or perhaps the "Obama wasn't born in the USA-gate" (they used the birth certificate of a bloke from Adelaide) amongst others?

Funny how in the evidence and acceptance by vast swathes of the community that global warming is at least "very likely", some group resorts to this sort of activity to attempt to hijack a policy/debate.

*Yawn*

yes... but you dont know if its true or false so just think about what it means if its all true. you do know the first quote is true because its been confirmed. grab a crowbar and just try and pry your mind open a little.

Barfridge
23-11-2009, 08:43 AM
*Yawn*

Another "Leak" revealed to the masses about something someone diasagrees with. Gee there aren't many of these lately, and gosh dang if they don't just agree with what the leaker is trying to get across.

Slightly too convenient methinks:rolleyes:

Well, does anyone remember the "Godwin Grech-Gate" (a manufactured lie), or perhaps the "Obama wasn't born in the USA-gate" (they used the birth certificate of a bloke from Adelaide) amongst others?

Funny how in the evidence and acceptance by vast swathes of the community that global warming is at least "very likely", some group resorts to this sort of activity to attempt to hijack a policy/debate.

*Yawn*
It's easy when you have a prime minister was gets up and says "It's bloody hot in Adelaide today, that must be global warming at work! What more proof do you need?"

That kind of baseless claim is what makes me sceptical. There are too many vested interests on either side for the truth to have any chance whatsoever. It's now about money and power, the truth is always the first casualty.

mekon
23-11-2009, 01:53 PM
2GB Media Player - Alan's Lord Monckton interview goes global (http://www.2gb.com/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=5149)

Infusi0n
23-11-2009, 04:10 PM
The head of the CSIRO's climate unit got fired 3?4? years ago, after serving as Australia's leading climate expert for 15 odd years, he was fired because he refused to backup certain politicians that climate change was an urgent crisis. Was at a very interesting talk given by him.

dr00
23-11-2009, 04:57 PM
theres some more interesting stuff coming out as people keeping going through the stuff. they seem to be finding some tasty morsels in the some of the code that was included. programmers have written lots of comments (as they do) in amongst the code to say what each bit does and thats where some bad sounding stuff is being found.

here's a couple

; Plots 24 yearly maps of calibrated (PCR-infilled or not) MXD reconstructions
; of growing season temperatures. Uses “corrected” MXD – but shouldn’t usually
; plot past 1960 because these will be artificially adjusted to look closer to
; the real temperatures.


; Computes regressions on full, high and low pass Esper et al. (2002) series,
; anomalies against full NH temperatures and other series.
; CALIBRATES IT AGAINST THE LAND-ONLY TEMPERATURES NORTH OF 20 N
;
; Specify period over which to compute the regressions (stop in 1960 to avoid
; the decline

Church
23-11-2009, 05:24 PM
Did you read some of the other stuff that they were saying?

"I wonder if the climate change skeptics down under twist the truth counter-clockwise instead of clockwise?"

It's pretty clear that these guys are legit.

RIP context.

dr00
23-11-2009, 05:50 PM
Did you read some of the other stuff that they were saying?

"I wonder if the climate change skeptics down under twist the truth counter-clockwise instead of clockwise?"

It's pretty clear that these guys are legit.

RIP context.

no questions raised at all in any of this stuff for you then?

Roger Explosion
23-11-2009, 06:01 PM
I must ask Droo, what is your interest in all this? In previous threads you have been a pretty militant climate change sceptic, even posting dis-credited reports bankrolled by big oil. Not having a go, just seems strange to me.
Let's say, hypothetically it all is one giant scam. If it causes people and nations to clean up the way their lives impact on the planet, I fail to see that being such a negative thing.
If on the other hand, we contiue with our current lifestyle, that is making a mess of the environment, while we all bicker over the financial impact (which is at the root of all CC deniers arguments, no matter how they dress it up) it's not doing anybody any favours.
I'm not in favour of radical changes that have an immediate cripplling effect on some of the smaller economies of the world, but we do need to promote a gradual, yet constant attitude adjustment in regard to our impact on the environment.
I don't suppose you work for Woodside? :P

dr00
23-11-2009, 06:14 PM
I must ask Droo, what is your interest in all this? In previous threads you have been a pretty militant climate change sceptic, even posting dis-credited reports bankrolled by big oil. Not having a go, just seems strange to me.

im a sceptic by nature and this is no different. i remain unconvinced either way. i certainly would never say i am certain we are not causing climate change, but im far from convinced that we are. my interest in it is the same reason im interested in economics or politics or football or bikes. but this has nothing to do with me.


Let's say, hypothetically it all is one giant scam. If it causes people and nations to clean up the way their lives impact on the planet, I fail to see that being such a negative thing.

i think what they plan to do is the equivalent of getting chemo therapy just on the off chance you might have cancer. it will be debilitating and they need to make sure the evidence really does stack up before they do it.


If on the other hand, we contiue with our current lifestyle, that is making a mess of the environment, while we all bicker over the financial impact (which is at the root of all CC deniers arguments, no matter how they dress it up) it's not doing anybody any favours.
im not a "CC denier" so i dont know whats at the root of their arguments. you are making the assumption though that we are making a mess of the environment. many many people are not convinced of that. we may be but you might have cancer. heading to chemo tomorrow?


I don't suppose you work for Woodside? :P
no, i work for a family farming business. but whats it got to do with me?

Roger Explosion
23-11-2009, 07:10 PM
Don't get me wrong, I am interested in your opinion on the matter, even though I don't agree with it, I just was interested to see where you are coming from. The fact that you come from agriculture backround answers a lot of questions.
I don't agree with your chemo analogy. That would be suggesting that we are trying to treat a healthy planet. Are we fucking we the climate through excess carbon emissions? Yet to be proven.
Are excess carbon emissions and other polutants having a negative affect on a large part of our world? Yes they are.
I would rather err on the side of caution and plan a far cleaner of doing things as we move forward.

dr00
23-11-2009, 07:37 PM
Don't get me wrong, I am interested in your opinion on the matter, even though I don't agree with it, I just was interested to see where you are coming from. The fact that you come from agriculture backround answers a lot of questions.
I don't agree with your chemo analogy. That would be suggesting that we are trying to treat a healthy planet. Are we fucking we the climate through excess carbon emissions? Yet to be proven.

not suggesting at all that we are trying to treat a healthy planet, just drawing the analogy between having chemo as a precaution without convincing evidence of cancer and enforcing massive carbon cuts as a precaution without convincing evidence that carbon is doing damage.

im not saying there isnt convincing evidence of carbon doing damage, just that im not yet convinced.


Are excess carbon emissions and other polutants having a negative affect on a large part of our world? Yes they are.
I would rather err on the side of caution and plan a far cleaner of doing things as we move forward.

this whole debate is squarely pointed at carbon, not other pollutants. im not convinced of the negative impact of carbon.

dr00
24-11-2009, 08:14 AM
tim flannery on lateline last night when questioned about the email leak

We’re dealing with an incomplete understanding of the way the earth system works… When we come to the last few years when we haven’t seen a continuation of that (warming) trend we don’t understand all of the factors that create earth’s climate...So when the computer modelling and the real world data disagree you’ve got a very interesting problem… Sure for the last 10 years we’ve gone through a slight cooling trend.

and in the senate yesterday

Senator PARRY

I also want to raise some questions about new information that seems to have come to light in recent times which probably bears testimony as to why we should not be rushing this. I am looking at reports in the media, and I stress they are allegations and the veracity of the alleged emails has not been confirmed. … Documents have been leaked going back some years. Some of these documents, if they are found to be true, just raise further questions which, if I were the Prime Minister of this country … would mean that I would want to hold off a bit. I would want to cool off a bit before I charged off to Copenhagen or put monumental legislation to this parliament.…Reports say: … some of the climatologists colluded in manipulating data to support the widely held view that climate change is real, and is being largely caused by the actions of mankind

dr00
25-11-2009, 08:42 AM
Column - The warming conspiracy’s most damning emails | Herald Sun Andrew Bolt Blog (http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_the_warming_conspiracys_most_damning_emails #63883)

CitizenD
25-11-2009, 08:45 AM
It's easy when you have a prime minister was gets up and says "It's bloody hot in Adelaide today, that must be global warming at work! What more proof do you need?"

I fucking hate that prick.

dr00
25-11-2009, 01:59 PM
YouTube - Hide The Decline - Climategate
:tongue: