PSB 4WDing megathread - Tips / Tricks / Gear

[Rhino]

Needz moar megah!

I know we've got a camping thread which is closely related, but I thought we could fork off from that to get a bit more granular on setup.

This little 'intro' has nothing to do with my actual question, but I thought there was some interesting "pressure" advice (not tyres this time)... and also goes to show that I'm a magpie in these shops and get distracted easily... "Oh, shiny!"

TL;DR:
Went to ask a question about suspension, talk about tyres and buy an accessory bar and light bar

My actual question -=- Which tyres - Bridgestone Dueler A/T 697s (Which I was planning to get), or BF Goodrich A/T K02 (Which the ORE dude suggested)?

Story...

Suspension
I went down to see 'my guys' at Off Road Equipment (ORE) yesterday to ask them a simple question about my suspension.
I have 2" lift on RidePro suspension. The same guy that helped develop Old Man Emu (OME) started RidePro, and is what's on my camper trailer.
I've got moderate springs as I rarely load it up heavy, and Polyair bellows airbags to compensate, for when I do.
Even though I had moderate springs, the rear was still riding hard when empty. I know that's kind of expected, but I thought the moderates would be more compliant and "stock-ish"... so I was going to see if there was anything lighter than moderate.

There isn't, but we found that I was about 2psi over the suggested minimum pressure (20psi) for the bags on one side, and 5 over on the other.
I'd pumped them up using a bicycle track pump, but checked them with my Mean Mother tyre pressure gauge at ORE.
They obviously don't agree, and I'll be using the ONE gauge (MM) to check from now on.

Being such a small vessel, the pressure change in the airbag is quite noticeable, and just pressing it with your finger is enough to notice a couple of PSI difference.

We established that when the tray is empty and the bags are inflated too high, I'm basically riding on the bags and not the springs. Hence, the harsh ride. It also doesn't give the springs a chance to settle.

We dropped the PSI down to 18, and it made a HUGE difference to the ride. Never thought a couple of digits would make such a big change.
Great help and advice from them. So simple. :/

After getting that out the way, and satisfied that the spring rate was fine, I then questioned why it sat so freakin' high, and should I pull the 2" lift out of it. But after looking at the side-step rather than the wheel well / guard / arch as a much better reference point, I'm not as concerned about it any more and think it's all OK. That, lead on to...

Tyres
And, my actual question.
He said that when I drop the A/Ts on, it will make it all look a bit tougher, and fill the gaps a bit more.
Even though the tyres will be roughly the same spec (only 10mm larger in diameter), they just seem to fill it all out a bit better somehow. Voodoo!
By the time I left, a Ranger had pulled up next to me. Same colour and height, but he had A/Ts on. What a difference in appearance between the two!

As you will have seen up at the start, I mentioned I was going to get the Bridgestones, but he steered me towards the BFGs.

Thoughts?

Also, get 4, or 5?

Argument 1: You only need your spare to get you to a repair shop
Argument 2: Get the best, no weak links!



Lighting :/
And... after all that, I freeranged around the shop, and bought a single loop accessory bar, and LightForce 20" double LED bar, to get installed Wednesday

If the double looks ridiculous on the accessory bar, I'll just get a single instead, but on paper, the double was a lot better, for only $100 difference.
So, it might just come down to looks.

Look forward to your thoughts on the tyres, and anything else you care to comment on.

Next mods...
- Tyres
- Lockers
- Smile, you're done

[=Stevo=]

---

In my experience with both on work cars the The BFG K02 is a great tyre, the last few varieties of Duelers have been extremely hit and miss.
That said, I think most of the BFG range are way overpriced so you've got to weigh up how much you actually 'need' the good tyres - plenty of our work utes get round on cheaper less aggressive AT tyres such as Maxxis 751s or Kuhmo Road Ventures and don't seem to suffer in any major way, but if you've got plenty of harsh offroad work coming up the good tyres are worth the cash.

If you are getting a good deal on the tyres and the spare is old then get 5, then rotate the spare through as well each time you get the tyres rotated and you'll increase your tyre lifespan significantly. Actual diameters can vary significantly against the stated diameter between brands, models and tread patterns (HT, AT, MT) so it is always nice to have them all the same, but not 100% essential if your spare is the same placard size and in decent condition.

Lastly on the suspension, I always think you are better off maxxing out your tyre size first before going for a lift (provided you can get the tyres to fit within the guards without the lift) - legally you can go two inches above the largest factory size provided, which will give you at least an extra inch of clearance under the diff over factory - which I think is more valuable than a suspension lift. You have to be aware though that under the newish VSB14 regs that if you have a tyre increase and/or lift that takes you beyond 50mm of lift then chances are it is illegal unless engineered or testing done and you won't be covered by your insurer if they ever find out about it.

[Rhino]

Yeah, I'll only be going up 10mm in tyre size from stock, and have been told even that is enough to rub guards at maximum lock if you're articulated.
So won't be going any larger than that.

The price between the tyre brands is only about 10-20 per tyre.
As you said, I think 5 is a better way to go...

If I can get Toyota to actually rotate it out when they service it.
The 5th is a steel wheel
Popping rubber off a rim is too hard for them it would seem.

Might have to just tell 'em to not touch the wheels/tyres and i'll get it done elsewhere.

[robbo85]

Depending on how serious off-road and remote adventuring you want to go, get 6 and an extra rim! I learned the hard way...

Also, with tyres, you will compromise quite a bit on Tarmac grip with at's. There are brands where the tyre lasts longer - but the grip is notably worse. If you plan on driving mainly unsealed, that may not bother you too much. I had a set of the (go crucify me) Hankook AT's and was very happy with them 60k+ km out of the set and only one puncture on gibb river where I needed a new tyre in the end. It was a Bridgestone as I could get nothing else at the time. The Hankook already had 10k on them... By 35 the Bridgestone was done for.
But Tarmac grip and especially wet Tarmac grip was average at best

[shortSteve]

Hey mate, as others have said re: tyres, I have 6 so not really what your looking for, but 2 are half worn and on steelies, so basically I just run four on alloys and use others as emergency spares until get a replacement same as the 4 on alloys...that made more sense in my head than it does to read
I am not a big fan of BFG or Coopers, the BIL has worked in the retail tyre industry all his life (and last 5 or so years, mining) and they have gone through them all, but he rates the D697 Bridgestone very highly. BUT, it depends on what size, as tyre spec/construction/load rating varies between just a single profile change on same size (width/rim). As an example, the set I used to run where 265/75/16, in a 10 ply equivalent (123 load rating iirc?). To get same size in a 70 profile was "only" a 117 load rating. I went with the larger OD, they did just under 85k km when I traded the vehicle, (I still have the second spare as my backup on the new wagon) and still had approx. 7.5-8mm tread depth (started at 13-14mm). They were extremely tough, but very stiff in the sidewall, which meant straight to 15 psi or less for any sand, and rarely over mid 20's anytime off road. Compared to Dunlop, Goodyear and Maxxis I have run, by far the best tyre, especially in wet road grip, where some of the "long life" brands are appalling. Saying that, have heard of some being destroyed in sub 30K (especially on heavy IRS vehicles like Pajeros), but seems to come down to pressure and alignment more than anything. When this set of tyres on the wagon go, will be going back to D697 again, without a doubt.

And I lolled at your "comfort" rear springs, I ran a 550kg set for 2 years, was like being in a billycart haha. The 350kg set was much better, and only marginally lower when loaded and towing. Now I have a coil rear end, will be very unlikely to go back to leafs again.

sS

edit: make sure the tyres are LT construction, far heavier sidewalls and carcass, less likely to puncture.

[Rhino]

Sounds like the 697s are the way to go...

Might look at a couple of these Gator Jaw shackles as well, and get rid of the steel missiles :s

http://www.bubbarope.com/gator-jaw-soft-shackle

[Bensat]

The D697 will serve you well, as SS mentioned make sure they are the LT version. Been using them and their predecessors on a fleet of vehicles working in remote areas throughout Australia for years. Could write pages on tyre's and reasons but your already on the right track.

As for the spare, best think of it this way. If conditions mean one of your better road tyres has let you down, will your dodgy spare be able to get you home?

[Rhino]

I was assured the ones I was looking at were LT construction.
@ ~$420 per tyre, I'd bloody hope so!

Yep...

Bridgestone Dueler A/T 697
265/70R17LT 118S

[chief wiggum]

And I lolled at your "comfort" rear springs, I ran a 550kg set for 2 years, was like being in a billycart haha. The 350kg set was much better, and only marginally lower when loaded and towing. Now I have a coil rear end, will be very unlikely to go back to leafs again.

having watched your rear wheels bounce completely off the ground over a bump i barely felt, i'd agree the 550's were way too heavy


on the subject of airbags, you have to be careful with them, i've heard tales of people bending chassis from inflating the bags too high. it changes the load points and can cause problems. the ones we installed on my bro's hilux 2 months ago stated max pressure was 50psi, but i wouldn't go anywhere near that.

[Graelin]

Just fitted BFG KO2 to the Patrol. Many recommendations from Patrol owners to fit these and very pleased so far with on road performance. I came off undersized Desert Duelers that were well worn so not fair to compare these with new.

[Rhino]

on the subject of airbags, you have to be careful with them, i've heard tales of people bending chassis from inflating the bags too high. it changes the load points and can cause problems. the ones we installed on my bro's hilux 2 months ago stated max pressure was 50psi, but i wouldn't go anywhere near that.

Yeah, I've heard those stories.

The bags are not the problem. It's the user.

Overloading, and incorrect loading is what creates the issue.
If you put all your heavy shit right at the back, on an oversized tray, then yeah, you're creating a pivot point and can run into trouble.

I suspect... those people aren't operating within GVM either.

Given I have a dual cab, and therefore a smaller tray, AND am religiously keeping to my GVM - I don't anticipate any issues.

Back to tyres, but this time pressure... I can't believe I ONLY considered pressure to effect on width, when it has way more effect on the LENGTH increase to provide traction.

Also interested to hear what you think about this "4psi rule" they talk about here: http://www.unsealed4x4.com.au/how-to-tyre-pressures/

[Bensat]

4 psi rule works fairly well for touring duties. Found with the D697 36psi is a good number on a moderately loaded cruiser. People seem to keep wanting to run them at 40 odd but they just get tread damage on the fast dirt and a harsh ride. Usually start with 25 psi on sand which gives good feel for how its going and if you get stuck at that pressure plenty of room to let them down and drive out.

[Speed Dealer]

Used this kit from 4WD Supacentre last weekend. For the price the gear is actually really good. Did a winch recovery and used the tree trunk protector, shackle, winch blanket, snatch block and winch extension strap from the kit and you wouldn't think it was so cheap.

https://www.4wdsupacentre.com.au/pro...very-gear.html

[Speed Dealer]

having watched your rear wheels bounce completely off the ground over a bump i barely felt, i'd agree the 550's were way too heavy


on the subject of airbags, you have to be careful with them, i've heard tales of people bending chassis from inflating the bags too high. it changes the load points and can cause problems. the ones we installed on my bro's hilux 2 months ago stated max pressure was 50psi, but i wouldn't go anywhere near that.

Yeah, I've heard those stories.

The bags are not the problem. It's the user.

Overloading, and incorrect loading is what creates the issue.
If you put all your heavy shit right at the back, on an oversized tray, then yeah, you're creating a pivot point and can run into trouble.

I suspect... those people aren't operating within GVM either.

Given I have a dual cab, and therefore a smaller tray, AND am religiously keeping to my GVM - I don't anticipate any issues.

I know personally two people who've cracked/bent the chassis due to airbags. A Ford Courier and a Ford Ranger.

The Ford Courier did it on a trip up north. Cracked the chassis right above the airbag. We had to use a couple ratchet straps to straighten it as best we could for the drive home. He probably was carrying a bit too much gear.

[Rhino]

Yep. You gotta use them actively (not just set and forget), and also drive accordingly. Tyre pressure will also affect how everything works together.

At their minimum pressure, my camper sits exactly where it needs to be.

Low PSI, taking a bit of load and stopping the arse bucking all over the place - they work a treat.

I wouldn't put a ton in the back, pump 'em up and drive rough.

What do you suspect went wrong with the Ranger?

[Speed Dealer]

What do you suspect went wrong with the Ranger?

It was a PJ Ranger towing a camper trailer offroad. Had 10PSI in the airbags. Courier had somewhere between 20-25PSI.

I'm not saying anything against them as I've never used them so can't comment and as you said, everyone drives differently. This is just what happened to a couple blokes I know.

[chief wiggum]

don't know if the airbags had anything to do with it, but i broke both rear springs on a hilux on the canning stock route, it was well loaded at around 3.5ton. the springs snapped at the front eyelet, most people in the know reckon they usually snap in the middle somewhere. they were old man emu units too, only a year old

[boeman]

Tyres
And, my actual question.
He said that when I drop the A/Ts on, it will make it all look a bit tougher, and fill the gaps a bit more.
Even though the tyres will be roughly the same spec (only 10mm larger in diameter), they just seem to fill it all out a bit better somehow. Voodoo!
By the time I left, a Ranger had pulled up next to me. Same colour and height, but he had A/Ts on. What a difference in appearance between the two!

As you will have seen up at the start, I mentioned I was going to get the Bridgestones, but he steered me towards the BFGs.

Thoughts?

Also, get 4, or 5?

Argument 1: You only need your spare to get you to a repair shop
Argument 2: Get the best, no weak links!

I have the BFG AT's.

Put these on the Jimny after 70k on some General Grabber ATs. My notes below.


1. I love the look of the BFG AT's. They are nice to look at.
2. Quieter on the road than the GG.
3. Improved fuel economy from what I can gather (driving my set trip to surf spot from full tank at same servo). I went down from a 225 to 215 so most of it is probably in that.
4. They come on special a LOT. Got mine for $199.
5. Get the 5th. My 5th is still a mint GG, so can't justify the extra BFG just yet.

So, 10k in and no complains nor punctures. Good on the sand when bagged out. Slightly less aggressive tread than the GG but somehow look better.

That said, my old man is about to do his 3rd trip across/around oz in his hilux with duellers. Swears by them. Spends more time on the road though obviously and just light offroad (sand mostly).

[chief wiggum]

I have the BFG AT's.

Put these on the Jimny after 70k on some General Grabber ATs. My notes below.


1. I love the look of the BFG AT's. They are nice to look at.
2. Quieter on the road than the GG.
3. Improved fuel economy from what I can gather (driving my set trip to surf spot from full tank at same servo). I went down from a 225 to 215 so most of it is probably in that.
4. They come on special a LOT. Got mine for $199.
5. Get the 5th. My 5th is still a mint GG, so can't justify the extra BFG just yet.

So, 10k in and no complains nor punctures. Good on the sand when bagged out. Slightly less aggressive tread than the GG but somehow look better.

That said, my old man is about to do his 3rd trip across/around oz in his hilux with duellers. Swears by them. Spends more time on the road though obviously and just light offroad (sand mostly).

what size tyres you running on the jimney? $190 is pretty cheap

[ReCon]

Yep. You gotta use them actively (not just set and forget), and also drive accordingly. Tyre pressure will also affect how everything works together.

At their minimum pressure, my camper sits exactly where it needs to be.

Low PSI, taking a bit of load and stopping the arse bucking all over the place - they work a treat.

I wouldn't put a ton in the back, pump 'em up and drive rough.

What do you suspect went wrong with the Ranger?

It was a PJ Ranger towing a camper trailer offroad. Had 10PSI in the airbags. Courier had somewhere between 20-25PSI.

I'm not saying anything against them as I've never used them so can't comment and as you said, everyone drives differently. This is just what happened to a couple blokes I know.

The Airbag man recommended that the bags not exceed 16 PSI on most vehicles. Wondered why but now it seems that over inflated bags might be too rigid, hence damage at load point intersects....