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Thread: It stops with me!

  1. #261
    Member Deborah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwillia View Post
    No, I'm sure it isn't

    I am a firm believer in equality in sandwich making duties

    Anyone want to tell me why The Kitchen exists? and WTF it's called The Kitchen?
    I have theories about its creation, I think it's a combination of some or all of:

    Theory #1 Some internet forums have content that feels, at times, hostile toward women. Sometimes it feels like a lot. Amazingly, many women aren't attracted to that day after day. But they aren't ready to divorce the internet, or PSB. Someone at PSB wanted to *not* make women feel unwelcome, but didn't want to moderate for sexist content, leg-humping, derisive gendered terms, etc in the general sections.

    Theory #2 Lip-service aka 'moral licensing' aka implied equality aka 'we've done this, what more do you want'

    Theory #3 A place to reach into your computer for support on issues pertaining to being a woman, but with more lived experience and expertise in the replies and less defensiveness (see Theory #1 ).

    Theory #4 A place to ogle fully or partially nude men, if that's your cup of tea because hey, some of us got needs.

    I think the name The Kitchen was chosen in an ironic, tongue-in-cheek sense. I cringe a bit when I see the name, but you pick your battles. Sometimes that means laughing along with the boys.

    The Kitchen is not that well-frequented nowadays, groups have formed on social media so the need is being met elsewhere.
    Regrets
    I've had a few
    But then again
    Sit down, this is going to take a while.

  2. #262
    Member AZAZL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
    Maybe he's seen someone challenge the way women are treated or talked about in various parts of this forum, the internet and the world in general. Maybe he's listened to, actually listened to, the lived experience of many women navigating the world. And then seen the reaction they get from many dudes when they try to articulate it.
    [...]
    Not accusing you of this AZAZL, just putting in my 2c as to why the OP might be cynical about the reaction to him as he questions the status quo.
    [Ö]
    To everyone else, if you've read this far - We can do this, if we want it. A high tide raises all ships.
    We donít really still live in that place any more and Iím not sure why people want to dwell in it. That is the nature of these threads. That is my point. The change has already occurred and history is the proof.

    Yes, there are morons that still come out with this stuff, be it trolling or something more sinister. It is not the status quo. They are not who we are now. Is it not obvious to most how repulsive these replies are?

    They are people who are resistant to change which also happens throughout history. Too late dinosaurs, the change happened long ago.

    Now we could kill them all off. Problematic that the 'we' becomes the 'them' when that happens.
    We have a gene for gossip.
    We have a gene for superstition.
    We have a gene for jumping to conclusions and making fools of ourselves
    but we have no gene for science.
    Michio Kaka on "Buttpower"
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  3. #263
    Member Skut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZAZL View Post
    We donít really still live in that place any more and Iím not sure why people want to dwell in it. That is the nature of these threads. That is my point. The change has already occurred and history is the proof.
    I think a few women dying due to "domestic violence", sexual assault etc might disagree with you. Oh wait, they can't.

    And you realise you are telling a woman how they should feel/perceive an environment from your own perspective and completely invalidating their own? Change is happening, sure, but look at all the weirdo "men's rights" and incel groups that are popping up as a dinosaur reaction to possible extinction of misogynist views and societal gender inequities - some of those reactions resulting in murder, desecration of memorials, online harassment/bullying, and other bullshit.

    It's strange how you keep shooting at the messenger and the way they message and ignoring the actual elephant in the room when it stumbles in.
    Last edited by Skut; 17-09-2018 at 11:27 PM.
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  4. #264
    Member AZAZL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skut View Post
    I think a few women dying due to "domestic violence", sexual assault etc might disagree with you. Oh wait, they can't.

    And you realise you are telling a woman how they should feel/perceive an environment from your own perspective and completely invalidating their own? Change is happening, sure, but look at all the weirdo "men's rights" and incel groups that are popping up as a dinosaur reaction to possible extinction of misogynist views and societal gender inequities - some of those reactions resulting in murder, desecration of memorials, online harassment/bullying, and other bullshit.

    It's strange how you keep shooting at the messenger and the way they message and ignoring the actual elephant in the room when it stumbles in.

    You obviously know how odious that sounds. You are also making my point.


    Thanks for the insult I would manspeak. That's what you are doing? ad hom? How about just OWM me and brand me with every bigotry.

    Profound change has already happened. Those weirdos you correctly criticise used to control mainstream thought. They now are seen as what they are.

    Your hyperventilating does seem to incite them though. Like kids provoking a shit throwing monkey.
    We have a gene for gossip.
    We have a gene for superstition.
    We have a gene for jumping to conclusions and making fools of ourselves
    but we have no gene for science.
    Michio Kaka on "Buttpower"
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  5. #265
    Member INTJ's Avatar
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    My brother married a girl he worked with - he was her boss at the time - my mum met her partner at her workplace - I believe she was technically his boss - my dad left my mum for someone at his workplace - he was her boss... so we have this issue whereby men/women should apparently be strongly discouraged (by law or by public shaming) from making comments that make men/women feel 'uncomfortable' in the workplace, yet a decent amount of relationships spawn from exactly that in the workplace... relationships are uncomfortable... especially the initiation... there's a few 'misses' before a 'hit' is made... should those 'misses' just all be labelled as sexual harassment and if so, what impact will that have on workplace romance?

    The example of 'Nollsy' is a great example of a stupid dickhead trying to look alpha... we all know his dick's shriveled up, probably has bad cholesterol, couldn't climb a flight of stairs let along mount a woman... I'd probably suggest smacking him around just like Speed Dealer did, but then in hindsight I'd feel bad for the guy. It's a horrible feeling to just have never been taught where the line is... and to cross it and be corrected in such public and spectacular fashion is just as humiliating to him as the words he tossed around so carelessly were for the girls. Maybe it's the beat down he needed? Maybe it could have been a more private berating? I dunno, I guess I'm indifferent and there's no use dwelling on the past, and even less use fixating on just 1 moment in the past.
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  6. #266
    Member dwillia's Avatar
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  7. #267
    Member AZAZL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJ View Post
    My brother married a girl he worked with - he was her boss at the time - my mum met her partner at her workplace - I believe she was technically his boss - my dad left my mum for someone at his workplace - he was her boss... so we have this issue whereby men/women should apparently be strongly discouraged (by law or by public shaming) from making comments that make men/women feel 'uncomfortable' in the workplace, yet a decent amount of relationships spawn from exactly that in the workplace... relationships are uncomfortable... especially the initiation... there's a few 'misses' before a 'hit' is made... should those 'misses' just all be labelled as sexual harassment and if so, what impact will that have on workplace romance?

    The example of 'Nollsy' is a great example of a stupid dickhead trying to look alpha... we all know his dick's shriveled up, probably has bad cholesterol, couldn't climb a flight of stairs let along mount a woman... I'd probably suggest smacking him around just like Speed Dealer did, but then in hindsight I'd feel bad for the guy. It's a horrible feeling to just have never been taught where the line is... and to cross it and be corrected in such public and spectacular fashion is just as humiliating to him as the words he tossed around so carelessly were for the girls. Maybe it's the beat down he needed? Maybe it could have been a more private berating? I dunno, I guess I'm indifferent and there's no use dwelling on the past, and even less use fixating on just 1 moment in the past.
    To paraprhase our workplace policy. If you are going to fuck someone who answers to you in the workplace, find another job. The person you fuck doesn't have to find another job, you do.

    Agreed to by all employees including Directors.
    We have a gene for gossip.
    We have a gene for superstition.
    We have a gene for jumping to conclusions and making fools of ourselves
    but we have no gene for science.
    Michio Kaka on "Buttpower"
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  8. #268
    Member Skut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZAZL View Post
    You obviously know how odious that sounds. You are also making my point.


    Thanks for the insult I would manspeak. That's what you are doing? ad hom? How about just OWM me and brand me with every bigotry.
    Ad hom? Really? I pointed out that you denied someone else's lived experience by saying "We donít really still live in that place any more and Iím not sure why people want to dwell in it". You know, the words you type.

    You know what I am fucking sick of? Guys getting butt-hurt online about semantics and vaguely implied insults (which were never intended as insults) and mucking about with sophistry to denigrate others arguments without actually addressing the argument. I have never called you a bigot (in fact I usually respect your opinions and arguments) I am just confused by what you seem to be more angry and defensive about when recent events and even quite a few posts on this very forum are exemplary of a continuing misogyny. Bugger me, even the current government is closing ranks and shutting down women who dare to speak about intimidation, bullying, and unacceptable behaviour. But you are saying that it is all okay now?

    You are starting to sound like the old argument "Your intolerance of bigotry makes you more of a bigot"

  9. #269
    Member AZAZL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skut View Post
    Ad hom? Really? I pointed out that you denied someone else's lived experience by saying "We donít really still live in that place any more and Iím not sure why people want to dwell in it". You know, the words you type.

    You know what I am fucking sick of? Guys getting butt-hurt online about semantics and vaguely implied insults (which were never intended as insults) and mucking about with sophistry to denigrate others arguments without actually addressing the argument. I have never called you a bigot (in fact I usually respect your opinions and arguments) I am just confused by what you seem to be more angry and defensive about when recent events and even quite a few posts on this very forum are exemplary of a continuing misogyny. Bugger me, even the current government is closing ranks and shutting down women who dare to speak about intimidation, bullying, and unacceptable behaviour. But you are saying that it is all okay now?

    You are starting to sound like the old argument "Your intolerance of bigotry makes you more of a bigot"
    You keep making my argument so go ahead. Feel free to call me names.

    The social landscape of racism, domestic violence, sexism and homophobia has radically changed in the last 50 years.

    Has it not?
    We have a gene for gossip.
    We have a gene for superstition.
    We have a gene for jumping to conclusions and making fools of ourselves
    but we have no gene for science.
    Michio Kaka on "Buttpower"
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  10. #270
    Member Skut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZAZL View Post
    You keep making my argument so go ahead. Feel free to call me names.

    The social landscape of racism, domestic violence, sexism and homophobia has radically changed in the last 50 years.

    Has it not?
    You seem to have misunderstood me. When I said " recent events and even quite a few posts on this very forum are exemplary of a continuing misogyny" I wasn't referencing you as making those posts. I never called you a bigot because I don't consider you to be one - never have, so I am not about to call you names.

    Of course the social landscape has changed, and mostly for the better; but I was talking about what seems to be an aggressive push-back against said changes and a rise in some of the more vicious forms of misogyny. Just because things have improved in some ways does not mean "mission accomplished" and that everyone should shut up about it now rather than calling it out when they see it, or more so when they experience it.

  11. #271
    Member BusaSteve's Avatar
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    Isnt this sort of topic one of Fartbook's primary purpose's? shouldnt it be being tweeted?? I have been guilty, in the past, of spouting shit but this crap has gone far enough...IMHO...of course!
    Smoke me a kipper...I'll be home in time for breakfast
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  12. #272
    Member AZAZL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skut View Post
    You seem to have misunderstood me. When I said " recent events and even quite a few posts on this very forum are exemplary of a continuing misogyny" I wasn't referencing you as making those posts. I never called you a bigot because I don't consider you to be one - never have, so I am not about to call you names.

    Of course the social landscape has changed, and mostly for the better; but I was talking about what seems to be an aggressive push-back against said changes and a rise in some of the more vicious forms of misogyny. Just because things have improved in some ways does not mean "mission accomplished" and that everyone should shut up about it now rather than calling it out when they see it, or more so when they experience it.
    The social landscape has gone through extraordinary change. It is not 'better' or 'worse'. It is change. The original post is a successful troll. Credit to the poster.

    We have a gene for gossip.
    We have a gene for superstition.
    We have a gene for jumping to conclusions and making fools of ourselves
    but we have no gene for science.
    Michio Kaka on "Buttpower"
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  13. #273
    Member Deborah's Avatar
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    The social landscape is indeed better for women in my generation, partly due to things like laws banning women from drinking in many public bars being lifted in the 60's and the decriminalisation of marital rape in WA in the 80's, the marriage bar being lifted from jobs like mine and so on (which is why I'm called "Miss" at school while my much younger male colleague is called "Sir". The good old days).

    These changes happened at that time, because the large group feminist effort required to demand it wasn't as available to women before then. These changes didn't happen overnight, they were hard-fought as the old laws were based on deeply entrenched societal views, held at the highest levels of government and church, and the legacy of that opposition is still strong, in many subtle ways. I come across it at various times in my life today, as do many other women. Cultural change happens over time. We're still getting there.

    It's not my whole life, it's a small part but it is there. There hasn't been a magical point at which the root of this problem has been "fixed".

    The MeToo movement. Women sending an SMS to a friend to let them know they made it safely home after a date. Women getting their keys out of their bag as they walk from the train to the car, holding them out between their knuckles like a petite Wolverine. You know. Just in case. Women being labelled 'bossy' for making the decisions that cause men to be seen as authoritative or a leader. Women called feisty - what is the male version of feisty? Why aren't men called feisty? Being brave is ballsy, if you're not ballsy enough, you're told to grow a pair. That you kick like a girl. Or, on this forum, it could be a comment about the sand in your vagina.

    All of this subtly supports men as the superior gender. Even if you don't notice it, if it honestly doesn't effect you, do you have to maintain it? Ae you unable to stop, to just take a minute to question it? Why? Is it because you have a shallow repertoire when it comes to taking the piss? Is it because you have carved a niche in the world and nobody dares to tell you what to do now? Well, they are shitty reasons as far as I'm concerned. It has driven a number of good, funny, clever women from places on the internet, including, but not limited to, this forum. I've had my own holiday. It becomes a bit of grind at times, more than once I've heard the phrase "not worth it".


    These innocuous little comments, jokes about sexual violence just to flaunt your free-speech, "Boys will be boys" when used to excuse the behaviour of a dickhead, suggesting that a forum whinger go the The Kitchen (subtext: at that stage they're as annoying as a woman). None of this makes you a rapist or the like. You'll already know this if you do these things and are not a rapist or the like. (incidentally, you could also try *not* doing these things, just for kicks, just a little but, just to see how it feels).


    The main difference is that violence and aggression towards women, by men, starts with a level of disrespect, entitlement, superiority, etc. That's not something I made up - it's from the people who deal with the perpetrators and see the awful consequences of their actions for a living. The experts in their field, who form the advisory bodies, to get our government and non-profits to promote "It Starts With Me", to enact some cultural change that stacks of research tells them will be a good thing.

    But hey what would they know?
    Regrets
    I've had a few
    But then again
    Sit down, this is going to take a while.
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  14. #274
    Member Skut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZAZL View Post
    The social landscape has gone through extraordinary change. It is not 'better' or 'worse'. It is change. The original post is a successful troll. Credit to the poster.
    Boom. You invalidated the motivation of the OP, and the perspective of people actually affected by the subject of the discussion and have passed your own judgement about what people should be "offended" about.

    You are now doing the name calling/labelling.

    Maybe this intense resistance and aggressive responses to this discussion prove the actual problem still exists and is manifesting in this diminishing microcosm?

    BTW "The social landscape has gone through extraordinary change. It is not 'better' or 'worse'. It is change." is a completely vacuous statement with no meaning; kinda like "Hey, one of my plants flowered and another did not" - but trying to seem profound. It actually offers nothing to the discussion (I state this because you are clearly into banal sophistry above actual substantive debate right now)
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  15. #275
    Member shan's Avatar
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    Blokes are blokes
    Chicks are chicks
    We are different, think differently and it's ok with me .
    A chick gets away with grabbing my ass in public just for the laugh .
    I carnt do the same .
    I've over heard women talking about blokes dicks and that's ok ,
    We fellas talk about tits all the time.
    Camel toe and all .
    We can joke still,
    Fuck me people get offended.
    So what .be offended.
    Harden the fuck up.
    Sticks and stones ring any bells
    REPENT MOTHER FUCKER
    (anarchy in english )
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  16. #276
    Member dwillia's Avatar
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    just because they're offended, doesn't make them right
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  17. #277
    Member INTJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
    All of this subtly supports men as the superior gender.
    They ARE superior in many ways. Men are, on average - taller, stronger, and more inclined to be the outliers in academically demanding tasks when compared to women (but that means they're on the higher AND LOWER spectrum of intelligence).

    Women are superior in many ways also. Women are, on average, develop/mature faster, they are more compassionate, more capable of learning literacy/language, and let's not forget they are the superstars who have babies. Since there's very little (if any) difference in IQ between genders, and since men are more likely to be outliers, you can also argue that women are consistently more intelligent than men - that is, they're less likely to be really dumb.

  18. #278
    Member Crobbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJ View Post
    They ARE superior in many ways. Men are, on average - taller, stronger, and more inclined to be the outliers in academically demanding tasks when compared to women (but that means they're on the higher AND LOWER spectrum of intelligence).

    Women are superior in many ways also. Women are, on average, develop/mature faster, they are more compassionate, more capable of learning literacy/language, and let's not forget they are the superstars who have babies. Since there's very little (if any) difference in IQ between genders, and since men are more likely to be outliers, you can also argue that women are consistently more intelligent than men - that is, they're less likely to be really dumb.
    Shut up you fucking bigot.
    In sterquiliniis invenitur.
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  19. #279
    Member chew's Avatar
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    I think that the issue is not about being offended but more being offended against (raped, bashed, murdered) because societal attitudes, language and beliefs empower some to carry out these misdeeds.
    They hung a sign up in our town "If you live it up, you won't live it down"-Tom Waits
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  20. #280
    Member INTJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crobbo View Post
    Shut up you fucking bigot.
    I'm interested to know how you came to the conclusion that I'm a 'bigot' (do you know what that word means?). Which specific sections that you quoted evidence a bigoted viewpoint and for what reason?

    Do you know telling someone to "shut up" without offering any coherent discourse is literally the definition of being a bigot? You're shutting down an argument and putting your hands over your ears like a fucking uneducated child.

    I said "like an uneducated child" mind you. I didn't actually call you anything derogatory. Just FYI
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