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Thread: 2019 MotoGP, Moto2 and Moto3 discussion thread (Spoilers)

  1. #301
    Member ApatheticEnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thro View Post

    The MotoGP guys really need to look at the shenanigans that F1 and Nascar engineers get up to. Especially with Aero. They're both heavily regulated series and both of them are hot-beds for technical innovation...
    Dafuq?
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    I was going to let that one slide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ApatheticEnd View Post
    Dafuq?

    NASCAR was a hotbed of innovation

    In 1967


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Member thro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ApatheticEnd View Post
    Dafuq?

    Look up the trickiness that the nascar guys get up to with regards to "cheating" or pushing the limits.

    One of the more recent sneaky things was a "manufacturing flaw" (that was what was claimed) which offset a rear spoiler by 1/3" that resulted in a heap of extra downforce. Another one was the application of some race tape to a particular area of the car, which had a similar effect. You may scoff and say that's not innovative, but you do what you can (or think you can) get away with, within the rule-set you have to play with. That's the point.

    The formula may be very limited to low tech in some ways, but the aero wars going on in that series are pretty intense. The technology limits on engine, etc. do not mean that the series as a whole is "low tech" or without engineering pushing the limits just as hard as in any other series. They're simply more restricted in where they can tweak.

    Because.... the rules are either not tight enough in those areas, or the teams feel they can push the boundaries.


    This is what ANY motorsports team should be doing, e.g., like Ducati are in MotoGP.

    People who think there is no innovation in Nascar (and i picked it specifically because it is very restricted - but knowing i'd get this sort of response) don't know anything about it.
    “Crashing is shit for you, shit for the bike, shit for the mechanics and shit for the set-up,” Checa told me a while back. “It’s a signal that you are heading in the wrong direction. You want to win but crashing is the opposite. It’s like being in France when you want to go to England and when you crash you go to Spain. That way you’ll never get to England!” -- Carlos Checa
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  6. #306
    Member SomeBloke's Avatar
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    Nascar just do what is expected of them to exploit the rules. Examples. measure the rolling diameter of the wheels and place the larger tyre on the outside. Ensure manufacturing is on the limit of allowance to capitalise on the extra potential.

    F1, GP and Prototype racing is where there is real innovation, engineers do the Nascar work (which really is the minimum job requirement) and exceed that point with hugely innovative and out the box thinking.

    The mass damper or inerter
    Off throttle blown diffusers
    Seamless gearbox
    Exotic materials
    hydropneumatic and magnetic suspension
    The Deltawing
    Fuel injection, data collection/analysis and electionic aid development

    What new tech has come from Nascar?

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by SomeBloke View Post
    Nascar just do what is expected of them to exploit the rules.
    Which requires out of the box thinking i.e.. innovative ideas. Because the rules are so tight.

    What new tech has come from Nascar?
    Never said any had. Doesn't mean they don't have clever people pulling all sorts of tricks to find loopholes in the rules.

    Which is what the other MotoGP teams outside of Ducati need to be thinking about and embracing.

    Until Ducati started messing with aero for example, no teams bothered.

    When the new aero regs came in, nobody else looked for other areas of the bike that are not constrained to the jig for additional aero performance.


    They simply aren't in that mind-set yet, and Ducati are. Maybe it's their ex-F1/Ferrari engineers, but whatever the reason, the other MotoGP teams need to pull their finger out. They can't rely on just signing a star and having a great chassis engineer anymore.
    “Crashing is shit for you, shit for the bike, shit for the mechanics and shit for the set-up,” Checa told me a while back. “It’s a signal that you are heading in the wrong direction. You want to win but crashing is the opposite. It’s like being in France when you want to go to England and when you crash you go to Spain. That way you’ll never get to England!” -- Carlos Checa

  8. #308
    Member SomeBloke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thro View Post
    Which requires out of the box thinking i.e.. innovative ideas. Because the rules are so tight.
    That's just smart and competent people doing their job. Not innovation.

    Ducati are pushing the envelope, but others pushed the envelope too, with electronics not long ago, tyres and engines before that. Rules need to be consistent and enforceable.

    Half the issue came about because one team got told no, and Ducati got a yes. The other half is poorly defined rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SomeBloke View Post
    Rules need to be consistent and enforceable.

    Half the issue came about because one team got told no, and Ducati got a yes. The other half is poorly defined rules.
    Definitely agree with that.

    As per previous post... if something is not explicitly banned, then fair game IMHO. Unless there is an immediate safety concern (e.g., there is no rule saying you can't run with knife edge brake levers or whatever - so some dumb cunt does it), then it should be open until the rules are reviewed FOR NEXT SEASON.

    You can't go penalising teams for innovation within the rules as written mid-season, just because they happen to be more devious than the others.

    i.e., to change topic slightly
    As much of a farce as the Panigale V4's extra RPM is in WSBK, they should be permitted to run it until the end of the season. It was a stupid choice to allow that, but the decision has been made...
    “Crashing is shit for you, shit for the bike, shit for the mechanics and shit for the set-up,” Checa told me a while back. “It’s a signal that you are heading in the wrong direction. You want to win but crashing is the opposite. It’s like being in France when you want to go to England and when you crash you go to Spain. That way you’ll never get to England!” -- Carlos Checa

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    Member SomeBloke's Avatar
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    Yeah I don't agree with mid-season changes either but the whole rule enforcement and query process needs to improve to ensure all teams get the same answer when investigating 'new' ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thro View Post
    Look up the trickiness that the nascar guys get up to with regards to "cheating" or pushing the limits.
    Oh! Like stopping the race for "debris on track" when a chip packet blows onto it - because the leader has pulled away too far and they need to bunch it up again to make it exciting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SomeBloke View Post
    What new tech has come from Nascar?
    As Thro said NASCAR has been so locked down rule wise for so long that big gains are had from really minor stuff like taping over their front air vents or slight changes to a wing or bonnet shape

    It was only a few years ago they went to FI as the carbs were so damned well sorted for the constant high 9500 rpm's they are running

    Yes they aren't nearly as high as a F1 car etc but then how many F1 cars would go 300km's total race length let alone 500 miles at full rpm's?
    Also how many times in F1 do more than 2 people go round the track with less than a foot between the 2 let alone a row of 10 plus and do it for dozens of laps?

    NASCAR is not about pushing the $ envelope and making it too expensive apart from a small few to be competitive and then seeing one or two fighting out for the race win, they are about keeping things more even $ wise and having it so any one of a dozen drivers can win on any day
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    So now all the bikes have stock ECUs and IMUs because of the speculation Ducati and Honda's proprietary IMUs were manipulating the stock ECUs....


    And nothing has changed. Yamaha is still having the same issues and Honda and Ducati are still at the front.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Dealer View Post
    So now all the bikes have stock ECUs and IMUs because of the speculation Ducati and Honda's proprietary IMUs were manipulating the stock ECUs....


    And nothing has changed. Yamaha is still having the same issues and Honda and Ducati are still at the front.

    Yup.

    Until they mandate CONTROL SENSORS (they have for the IMU, are all sensors now stock?), the factories will simply build a more intelligent sensor to tell the appropriate lies to the ECU in order to alter its output by fudging the input. The IMU is merely one of a variety of sensors the factory could potentially modify in this manner. I mean fuck, you could modify the water temp sensor to do stuff (e.g., hide an IMU in your custom water temp sensor for example) as it has a bearing on engine fuel-mapping.

    As you say, nothing will change. The cream will rise to the top. But fucking around with sensors to lie to an ECU is not really productive development. Far better that the teams are forced to work on chassis or something else that has some relevance to the real world. There's no need to build superintelligent "Sensors" to lie to a road bike ECU. You'd just fucking program the ECU that way.
    “Crashing is shit for you, shit for the bike, shit for the mechanics and shit for the set-up,” Checa told me a while back. “It’s a signal that you are heading in the wrong direction. You want to win but crashing is the opposite. It’s like being in France when you want to go to England and when you crash you go to Spain. That way you’ll never get to England!” -- Carlos Checa

  15. #315
    Member slowpoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SomeBloke View Post
    Nascar just do what is expected of them to exploit the rules. Examples. measure the rolling diameter of the wheels and place the larger tyre on the outside. Ensure manufacturing is on the limit of allowance to capitalise on the extra potential.

    F1, GP and Prototype racing is where there is real innovation, engineers do the Nascar work (which really is the minimum job requirement) and exceed that point with hugely innovative and out the box thinking.

    The mass damper or inerter
    Off throttle blown diffusers
    Seamless gearbox
    Exotic materials
    hydropneumatic and magnetic suspension
    The Deltawing
    Fuel injection, data collection/analysis and electionic aid development

    What new tech has come from Nascar?
    The whole tech war is an ongoing battle, no matter which series you are competeing in.

    How much NEW tech has really come from F1? It's like our ol' mate Ecclesiastes said "there is nothing new under the sun"

    Electric hybrids? Done way back in 1899 https://www.hybridcars.com/history-of-hybrid-vehicles/
    Mass dampers? We've all seen the little weights hanging off HV powerlines, and TMD's were seen in skyscrapers before F1.
    Seamless gearbox? Done with tractors and dual clutches back in the 50's (if not earlier). It was only the dumb rule banning cheap dual clutch gearboxes in MotoGp that led to the development of the crazy expensive alternatives we see now.
    Hydropneumatic suspension? Citroen introduced it in 1954, but we didn't see it on an F1 grid until about '79/80.
    Deltawing? Interesting project eh? A Robin Reliant on steroids, lol. No, it actually looks like the logical evolution of a sidecar if they allowed 2WD:



    Or, if you smoke some particularly good shit:



    Fuel injection? Was pioneered away from the track in diesel and aero engines. Mercedes adapted the system from the Messerchmitt BF109 for the first application in F1, in a car which also had desdesmodromic valves (a la later Ducati). Electronic FI? That appeared on a Rambler Rebel before it was seen in F1 https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2017/0...omment-page-1/

    No innovation in Nascar? Smokey Yunick was a legendary "innovator": they had rules stipulating the maximum size of the fuel tank, but nothing about the size of the fuel lines so he just ran a 2" fuel line that was 11' long. Another fuel tank "innovation" was to insert a basketball in an oversized fuel tank, inflate it, and once past capacity checking deflate it. And you have to admire someone who is prepared to build a 7/8th's car to gain advantage (aerodynamics, weight), hence we have the "silhouette" rules now. Along with the dodgy stuff he also had some genuine good ideas, like the air flow driven alternator. "Power Secrets" by Smokey Yunick is a great read, full of crazy stuff.

    Not to mention Nascar gave us BIG CUBES!!! 426 Chrysler Hemi, Boss 429 etc....Thank you Nascar!

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