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Thread: 2019 MotoGP, Moto2 and Moto3 discussion thread (Spoilers)

  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    In my mind that won’t work.

    If the “spoon” angle changes with geometry, it will work in reverse of what the guy is proposing.

    Under load, what we’re calling the swing arm lifting, the wheelbase will lengthen, the swingarm pivot will lower and THAT will flatten out the swingarm (level with the ground) present a larger surface of the spoon to the direction of airflow.

    So it will have downforce and drag applied under acceleration.

    Under braking, what we’re calling swing arm falling, the wheel base will shorten, the pivot point will lift, and that would “tuck” the spoon up and present LESS surface.

    However, once the ENTIRE back end leaves the ground, THEN the DoA will change and the theory comes alive.

    So again, in my mind, the theory that it might be for braking is sound, but not the implementation of its “activation”.
    Looking at pics of it, under acceleration it's definitely tucked up out of the way with minimal air hitting it.

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    Which IMO means it will only come in to play when the nose pitches down AND the rear leaves the ground.

  3. #323
    Member SomeBloke's Avatar
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    I believe it's more so for anti-wheelie and initial grip.

    Mid-corner to exit, the bike is generally "neutral", and the air hits the wing creating an anti-wheelie moment about the rear axle.
    After than first part of throttle on, the swing arm tucks but the front also lifts to compensate. More air on the wing, more anti wheelie and a little downforce. Probably only a few % improvement.

    Then as you approach V-max (due to wheelie), it lowers the total bike centre of pressure a little, again, contributing to less wheelie and slightly higher V-max (wheelie).

    I strongly believe that the cooling property is almost negligible. With the low pressure air beneath the aerofoils expanding, yes the air is slightly cooler, but the time that the air is exposed to the wheel is minute and the delta-T is small that it won't do much at all. Not even a %... I think you would have a better result cooling the tyre by improving laminar flow around the tyre to get higher mass flow near the tyre surface.

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    Which IMO means it will only come in to play when the nose pitches down AND the rear leaves the ground.
    So we've wasted two posts agreeing

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    Apparently

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    In my mind that won’t work.

    If the “spoon” angle changes with geometry, it will work in reverse of what the guy is proposing.
    If that spoon angle changes with swing-arm geometry that may be the nail in teh coffin via the FIM ruling as technicaly it could be considered active aero which is (i believe?) banned.

    They wouldn't need to create a new rule to get rid of it next season, or be unfair about creating a rule mid-season for it. If it is moving the question just becomes whether or not it is an active or movable aero part (assuming active aero is explicitly banned, and i think it is).

    Will be interesting to see the ruling, anyway.
    “Crashing is shit for you, shit for the bike, shit for the mechanics and shit for the set-up,” Checa told me a while back. “It’s a signal that you are heading in the wrong direction. You want to win but crashing is the opposite. It’s like being in France when you want to go to England and when you crash you go to Spain. That way you’ll never get to England!” -- Carlos Checa

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    For sure.

    I was thinking the same thing, but it doesn't move. The swing arm does - it just happens to be attached to the swing arm.

    Is that any different to the front wings 'moving' as the bike pitches and rolls?

    Watch this space eh?

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhino View Post
    For sure.

    I was thinking the same thing, but it doesn't move. The swing arm does - it just happens to be attached to the swing arm.

    Is that any different to the front wings 'moving' as the bike pitches and rolls?

    Watch this space eh?
    Yeah that's what i'm thinking - however the front wings are directly fixed to the chassis, the rear scoop, attached by the moving swing-arm is not.

    It will be a tricky one, but IF ducati get fucked over for this before waiting for a new rule next season, i think that's where they will ping them - for it being a moveable aerodynamic device....

    I personally think that would be a shame, because as you say it only happens to move with the swing arm - but that would also likely impact the front fork things they are running... but then if they rule on that, do they rule on the brake ducts in use in moto2? What about the carbon fibre brake shrouds?

    It's all very grey.

    Personally i think they should let ducati run with it.


    Speaking of those front wheel mounted wing things ducati have - i have been waiting for someone to run something like that - upside-down semi-circle thing (I was personally trying to think of ways to curve the belly-pan to give it negative lift).

    It's obviously for more downforce on the front tyre. And even better than the front wings on the chassis - it will press the tyre in without going through the suspension. At the cost of some unsprung weight. But if they're carbon that will be minimal - and if they also work as an aero part to make the front brake assembly slipperier (i.e., less or same drag for net downforce improvement) ... win win.
    “Crashing is shit for you, shit for the bike, shit for the mechanics and shit for the set-up,” Checa told me a while back. “It’s a signal that you are heading in the wrong direction. You want to win but crashing is the opposite. It’s like being in France when you want to go to England and when you crash you go to Spain. That way you’ll never get to England!” -- Carlos Checa

  9. #329
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    Well, there are a few theories going around.

    Before they can make a ruling on that 'spoon' thing being in contradiction to the moveable aero rule - they need to prove that it IS aero, and not cooling as Ducati claim.
    According to other manufacturers - KTM worked on a similar device and were told they can't use it - it's aero.
    MotoWeek suggest that might all be in the pitch when they presented it to Danny Aldridge.
    If KTM claimed it was aero or for performance increase - they are more likely to get knocked back.
    They don't want manufacturers spending more money on either of those two things - specifically aero.

    If Ducati presented there part as cooling - [APPROVED]

    I think step one is that it needs to be proven that it's NOT for cooling - and the other manufacturers think they can do that.
    A few F1 engineers also thinks it's for downforce.

    I think if the cooling argument is thrown out - they HAVE to ban it under false pretense.

  10. #330
    Member Doug68's Avatar
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    If it gets banned, then they can make it an integral - structural part of the swing arm.
    Is there a rule governing the shape of them?

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
    Doug

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