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Thread: Belt Drives

  1. #41
    Member BusaSteve's Avatar
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    As you say the difference is a diff allows the wheels to rotate at different speeds using spider gears but essentially they take a drive through 90 degrees using a crown wheel and pinion...which is what I was referring to.
    Last edited by BusaSteve; 21-12-2018 at 12:54 PM.
    Smoke me a kipper...I'll be home in time for breakfast

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    Member Shafto's Avatar
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    *packs up logic brief case*

    Der took er jooobs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Steak View Post
    I’m fucked if I know why any vehicle has belts as part of a critical mechanical system. The reason I prefer European cars over Jap cars is that they use cam chains and not belts that need to be changed. Had a belt go in Mitsi Ute once. Scratch one fucking engine
    Euro cars use belts aswell, old Alfa V6's need to be dropped to change the belt.. every 2 years, thats like 8 hour job.

  4. #44
    Member Chuck Steak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shafto View Post
    There are actually a few reasons, all have pros and cons. Everything is a compromise. Belts have a much larger tolerance to vibration and small changes in tension or distance between drive and drive gear. The rubber can expand and contract with heat and the belt naturally absorbs vibration without any undue stress. Compared to chains, which once stretched its never coming back. Or if a chain gets loose, well then you drop a tooth or it shears gears. Dropping a tooth on a cam chain can be just as disastrous as a timing belt going.

    The most prolific general aviation helicopter company Robinson, their R22 and R44 helicopters....well literally the ONLY thing driving the rotor blade/tail rotor is....yup belts. They handle the vibrations and harmonics of a helicopter without any direct drive-line backlash that could damage gearboxes/engine. Just an inbuilt shock absorber in the driveline. The belts are ALOT lighter than any kind of clutch system that would need to be built in, and in small aircraft weight is everything.

    If i were to hazard a guess. Harley Davidsons have a belt final drive for similar reasons. They are really good at converting fuel to vibrations and thats about it. Having a belt drive would give some dampening to the driveline and it is also light and cheap to build.

    Chains are obviously a lot stronger, but they dont absorb environmental (vibrations and shit) or lack of maintenance issues...People think belts are maintenance free, which is just a lie some salesman has said and been regurgitated. Belts need to be looked after and inspected just like chains. You just dont lube a belt.

    And shaft drive? Well they are inefficient, heavy and require more maintenance than belts and chains. Engine output needs to be re-directed 90 degrees, then at the rear wheel needs to be changed direction 90 degrees again. This at the very least robs a whole bunch of power from getting to the real wheel...and then there is the weight and added complexity. A shaft drive bike will put a lot more load on the engine and clutches....

    if you dont care about weight and want parts protected well shaft driven works. Also stupidly strong..... Read BMW GS1200. No fast bikes have shaft drive because fast and the excess weight of a shaft drive...well bike isnt fast anymore. Although I would say the Suzuki Boulevards (1800's) are exciting, I like sports bikes. But those things are exciting in a "I ride in straight lines, turns scare me" way.

    In summary... Exciting motorcycle = fast bike/bike turns good. Shaft drive = heavy. Bike no longer turn good. Asking someone to change your mind is a little ignorant on the compromises of the 3 drive lines. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses, they just get used in different applications. Nothing wrong with belt drives, if they are good enough for helicopters they are good enough for bikes and cam belts.

    NOTE (Yes I know the ATSB has a report on the R22/R44's belt failures. The belt failures are all due to Lack of Maintenance...even in the aviation world people think belts are maintenance free)
    Quote Originally Posted by Water pig View Post
    My VW GTI had cam chain tensioner failure, it's a known issue. The latest model has gone belt drive with no reported issues, so Euro cars aren't exclusively chain driven
    Didn't know that. But VWs are one euro car I'd never own anyway. I love my Merc diesels

  5. #45
    Member GreenMeanie's Avatar
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    The OP did state, “Exciting bike.”
    All I have seen is lame and old.
    Or has PSB become the haunt of unexciting riders?

  6. #46
    Member Chuck Steak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shafto View Post



    And shaft drive? Well they are inefficient, heavy and require more maintenance than belts and chains. Engine output needs to be re-directed 90 degrees, then at the rear wheel needs to be changed direction 90 degrees again. This at the very least robs a whole bunch of power from getting to the real wheel...and then there is the weight and added complexity. A shaft drive bike will put a lot more load on the engine and clutches....

    if you dont care about weight and want parts protected well shaft driven works. Also stupidly strong..... Read BMW GS1200. No fast bikes have shaft drive because fast and the excess weight of a shaft drive...well bike isnt fast anymore. Although I would say the Suzuki Boulevards (1800's) are exciting, I like sports bikes. But those things are exciting in a "I ride in straight lines, turns scare me" way.
    Bullshit. The only part of my 1977 R100RS that I've never touched is the shaft. Actually come to think of it I don't even remember changing the oil in the final drive. And how much maintenance do you do oin the shaft in your car. And obviously a shaft isn't the choice for a sports bike because the bevel drives are less able to cope with the massive power outputs that sports bikes produce. But it's the obvious choice of final drives for touring bikes. But if you think you can't ride an exciting bike with a shaft you've never ridden a Le mans Guzzi. I've never ridden a bike that was so stable at high speed in corners as my Mk3. I remenmber that 2W once did a comparo with Japanese equivalents, all of which were much more powerful, and they said that the Guzzi was capable of the fastest point-to-point times.

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    Well I still enjoy my BMW R1100s. Shaft does require maintenance with bearings and oil change.

    Had it nine and a half years now. Modern shafts are a lot differnt to the older models and it handles as well as I need it to.

    It remains quite level cornering and the telelever front end matches it well. Yes there are better bikes in fact it isn't top at anything it does but the way it all comes together satisfies me. A newer BMW handles much easier again. Coming up nineteen years old this year. Still puts a smile on my face.
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  8. #48
    Member Chuck Steak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graelin View Post
    Well I still enjoy my BMW R1100s. Shaft does require maintenance with bearings and oil change.

    Had it nine and a half years now. Modern shafts are a lot differnt to the older models and it handles as well as I need it to.

    It remains quite level cornering and the telelever front end matches it well. Yes there are better bikes in fact it isn't top at anything it does but the way it all comes together satisfies me. A newer BMW handles much easier again. Coming up nineteen years old this year. Still puts a smile on my face.
    Maintenance? What exactly? I’ve owned my RS for 32 years and never touched it. The other thing about a dhaft especially on a bike like yours is they’re great off road. When you accelerate the wheel is forced down into the dirt enhancing grip. But let’s not confuse the kiddies

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenMeanie View Post
    The OP did state, “Exciting bike.”
    All I have seen is lame and old.
    Or has PSB become the haunt of unexciting riders?
    Never ridden a Mk3 LeMans have you fucknuckle? Fast. Better than fucking sex (pardon the tautology)

  9. #49
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    I thought these were a bit exciting back in the day.....

    https://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles...-ar158765.html


  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenMeanie View Post
    The OP did state, “Exciting bike.”
    All I have seen is lame and old.
    Or has PSB become the haunt of unexciting riders?
    His opinion of an exciting bike is what he was stating.
    They hung a sign up in our town "If you live it up, you won't live it down"-Tom Waits

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    [QUOTE=Chuck Steak;3406254]Maintenance? What exactly? I’ve owned my RS for 32 years and never touched it. The other thing about a dhaft especially on a bike like yours is they’re great off road. When you accelerate the wheel is forced down into the dirt enhancing grip. But let’s not confuse the kiddies

    The bearings I was told are the same as way back. Putting more power through them may be the wear cause. I get around seventy thousand before a bit of play on the back wheel shows they are worn. A lot of my riding is fully loaded and long distances. The oil I was using was to do 50,000 between changes so not a huge expense.

    I like the shaft drive.

    I have ridden a MK 1V Lemans as my riding partner has one. An amazing bike, 25 lire fuel tank is envious for modern bikes out in the country. It can cruise all day at speeds we used to do in the eighties lol. It is hard to change direction from a straight line compared to my bike but it remains rock solid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenMeanie View Post
    The OP did state, “Exciting bike.”
    All I have seen is lame and old.
    Or has PSB become the haunt of unexciting riders?

    Want me to paint the bike black and white for a rematch? Lol.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Steak View Post
    Maintenance? When you accelerate the wheel is forced down into the dirt enhancing grip. But let’s not confuse the kiddies
    Same thing happens with chain driven bikes, but without crippling power loss, and at a fraction of the weight and initial build cost.

    And as for maintenance, that's a mute point, as that's a bit like complaining that brake pads wear out. Yes chains and sprockets wear, but you can keep them clean and lubricated to extend their life. Drop the grease/oil out of your shaft driven museum piece and go for a ride down the Freeway, see how well that goes.

    Using the excuse that a chain is too much maintenance is pretty weak, that's the problem with the older generation, very lazy and always making excuses.

    A perfect example is only a few decades ago, when the kids were so lazy they even needed a machine to breath for them, and in tried and true fashion the excuses flowed thick and fast; "I have Polio", "I'm paralysed", "I'm not vaccinated". That last one is now making a comeback thanks to the same laziness that was prolific back then infecting the minds of the easily influenced youth of today.
    Last edited by TurboR1; 07-01-2019 at 07:32 AM.
    Trying to think of a wise and sincere signature quote, but the only words that leap to mind are, "TITTY SPRINKLES"
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    A griso 8V is a good compromise. If you don't think one of those is exciting on the street you're not riding it hard enough.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboR1 View Post
    Same thing happens with chain driven bikes, but without crippling power loss, and at a fraction of the weight and initial build cost.
    .
    Bullshit. The bevel gear on the rear wheel that is connected to the shaft is pushed down by the gear on the shaft because it’s only connected to the shaft on one side (which is the reason that they can’t cope with the amount of power of chaindriven sportsbikes). The action of the chain on a rear sprocket is uniform around its circumference andvthere is no net up or down movement. On a shaftie you feel the rear seat lift up a little under acceleration due to the 3rd Law equal and opposite reaction

  16. #56
    Member Chuck Steak's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Graelin;3406260]
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Steak View Post
    Maintenance? What exactly? I’ve owned my RS for 32 years and never touched it. The other thing about a dhaft especially on a bike like yours is they’re great off road. When you accelerate the wheel is forced down into the dirt enhancing grip. But let’s not confuse the kiddies

    The bearings I was told are the same as way back. Putting more power through them may be the wear cause. I get around seventy thousand before a bit of play on the back wheel shows they are worn. A lot of my riding is fully loaded and long distances. The oil I was using was to do 50,000 between changes so not a huge expense.

    I like the shaft drive.

    I have ridden a MK 1V Lemans as my riding partner has one. An amazing bike, 25 lire fuel tank is envious for modern bikes out in the country. It can cruise all day at speeds we used to do in the eighties lol. It is hard to change direction from a straight line compared to my bike but it remains rock solid.
    Yeah my Mk3 was the same. The reason they were so solid at high speed was the setup of the steering geometry. The trade off was that it was not a nimble bike at all, but that was deliberate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Steak View Post
    Bullshit. The bevel gear on the rear wheel that is connected to the shaft is pushed down by the gear on the shaft because it’s only connected to the shaft on one side (which is the reason that they can’t cope with the amount of power of chaindriven sportsbikes). The action of the chain on a rear sprocket is uniform around its circumference andvthere is no net up or down movement. On a shaftie you feel the rear seat lift up a little under acceleration due to the 3rd Law equal and opposite reaction
    Yeah and all you have is the little bit of power of which we've already established you've lost most of, pushing an arm down, and on a chain driven bike the entire bike tries to rotate itself around the rear sprocket (sometimes successfully), transferring the weight of the bike onto the back wheel aiding traction and acceleration. Well, until you 12 o'clock it (at which point it tries to rotate itself around it's front sprocket) and watch it cartwheel itself into oblivion... but that would be your own fault and you deserve it for cocking up a wheelie.

    We're going to drag you into the 21st Century whether you like it or not.
    Last edited by TurboR1; 07-01-2019 at 08:43 AM.
    Trying to think of a wise and sincere signature quote, but the only words that leap to mind are, "TITTY SPRINKLES"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Steak View Post



    Never ridden a Mk3 LeMans have you fucknuckle? Fast. Better than fucking sex (pardon the tautology)
    If a Le Mans excites you and it is better than sex, you must ‘bat off’ more tan you have the real thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenMeanie View Post
    If a Le Mans excites you and it is better than sex, you must ‘bat off’ more tan you have the real thing.

    Still wondering if Mr Steak would change out the points ignition on his dinosaur for electronic ignition. You never get stranded with that spare set of points and your rolley papers for the super fine fettler's feel road side tune up.

    I sold my 1000 LeMans (Mk IV) after getting a Sport 1100 in the mid 00's. The LeMans was getting very vanilla by that stage especially compared to anything else on the road.

    Getting blown off by a jag sealed the deal. Taking it like a biatch was not excitement. Big block guzzis had their day. 1972?
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    Member GreenMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZAZL View Post
    Still wondering if Mr Steak would change out the points ignition on his dinosaur for electronic ignition. You never get stranded with that spare set of points and your rolley papers for the super fine fettler's feel road side tune up.

    I sold my 1000 LeMans (Mk IV) after getting a Sport 1100 in the mid 00's. The LeMans was getting very vanilla by that stage especially compared to anything else on the road.

    Getting blown off by a jag sealed the deal. Taking it like a biatch was not excitement. Big block guzzis had their day. 1972?
    Exactly.
    ‘Excites’ needs clarification.

    1972 Z1 and 1974 MachIV excited me in their day.
    Riding them now is fun but not exciting. The word I would use is ‘lame’.
    It is testament to how far technology has come.
    Other than those early years of riding where any bike made your arse pucker the black bitch I have in the shed now is the only bike I have ridden that has my complete respect 100% of the time.
    I’m not saying that light hearted. All bikes require your respect but this one is just waiting for you to say to yourself, “I’ve got this.” and punish the fuck out of you.

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